Hung Gar Techniques.

[Hungfist]

essence said:

... Ha Say Fu does have a Crane set, in fact, they have 5 animal sets, one for each of the Hung Gar animal...

The Ng Ying Ng Hang is known as the 10 forms set -
5 animal (including crane) and 5 elements in Hung Gar. Unfortunately I havent learned this set yet. Give me time.

I do know what you are saying about Hay Say fu is correct. Perhaps I spoke too soon.

Apologies.

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou:

Quote: I don't think there is a dedicated Crane set in Wong Fei Hong's Hung Gar, but Ha Say Fu does have a Crane set, in fact, they have 5 animal sets, one for each of the Hung Gar animal. Unfortunately, my knowledge for Ha Say Fu ends there.

Correct, we did try to locate the area where the possible roots of Hasayfu, can be found. On the Southern Fist Online forum you can find information about this particular style. One of my students brought me once the snake set tape to me, to view. IMHO there was not much overlap in Wong Fei Hung Kuen. I must convince that I only saw the tape twice. I am sure that any reader of this forum can contact Hasayfu personally and ask him questions. Very nice young man willing to exchange information. One of the few…<br>
Eric:

Quote: Please be very kind with me for saying this - I think the Crane is really "underdeveloped" in most Cantonese systems.

It depends upon your model, and background of course. Under developed is an arrogant term to use. I think that the idea of Hard style Kungfu was, to touch more ‘softness’ in the art. And to be honest, the creation of Fu Hoc was a very good step. Much more variety of movement and action. And for the teacher a perfect moment to balance the hard eight Tiger postures, with the eight Crane techniques. Ideal to introduce more softness and dodging skills outside the direct and powerful tiger skills. Okay, these are my personal point of views. Looking to all my students, they have a hard time in translating Crane skills in a soft, and so different way. Remember that we do a lot of conditioning drills, and in relation with the long partnerforms, they love the pain of the kick/ beat. Then suddenly you say, dodge and go for the vital/ soft dots….. This need time and concentrated workouts to achieve such a skill. For the Fu Hoc level, more then enough.

Eric, I am the one to say, if you are crazy about the Crane, then train Crane. If you want to study Black Tiger, then find that teacher. But it is so hard to find a proper teacher in your neighbourhood. Unless you are experienced and know what you want, then a thousand miles ………….

Hungfist:

Quote: The Ng Ying Ng Hang is known as the 10 forms set - 5 animal (including crane) and 5 elements in Hung Gar. Unfortunately I havent learned this set yet. Give me time.

It seems that you have a nice and wonderful path to go. I can tell you in advance that the Crane and Tiger section are fragments from Fu Hoc. So keep the quality of those presented animals high! The Dragon part might be a tough one, and a preparation for the Tit Sin Kuen. The Five Elements part will be great, personal I think the Element Boxing part is the most important skills of the set.

Two terms are being used; Sap Ying Kuen or ten Pattern Boxing, and Ng Ying Ng Hang which explains it more clear: Five Animals Five Elements.

IMHO it is a rather new set made of old components. I believe that in the past (before 1900) a part was taken from Tit Sin Kuen, then from Ng Ying Kuen and Ng Hang Kuen. Individual short sets, combined in a ‘typical’ long Hung Kuen set with approximately 254 postures. Because the system is young, the Hung Kuen practitioner found different notes back about the pillars of Hung Kuen. Some say the Three pillars and other say the four pillars (including NYNHK).

But there is more. In our curriculum we have the old Five Animals and Ten Animal sets from Siu lam. Just known as Gau Ng Ying Kuen and Gau Sap Ying Kuen. Both sets contain Crane Boxing techniques, different then in Fu Hoc. To be honest I think they are Cantonese translations and I have seen postures back as done in “Needle in Cotton Boxing”. Therefore I like to conclude that the taste and flavour of Crane Boxing – as done in Kwantung province – is different then in Fukien province. But, I would advise any Hung Kuen practitioner to look to the details of our Fukien colleagues, because you we find many details which will absolutely broaden your knowledge and execution of Crane Boxing.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Evert,

I did say to be kind. I don't think I am being arrogant for using the phrase "underdeveloped" - I did not mean that what is done now in Cantonese systems don't measure up.

All I am trying to say is that there are so much more in Crane that is, for some reasons, not incorporated.

I understand perfectly what you meant when you said "balance" - the Fu and the Hoc, the Ying and the Yang.

Maybe, that is all that was required by the founding Masters.

But from an academic point of view, the Crane is really not taken to fullest potential in most Cantonese systems.

[Nataraya]

Eric,

Correct conclusions. There is a balance in Fu Hoc, and I agree with you that the Crane is a fraction of Crane Boxing what there is in Fukien province. I can not speak on behalf the Choy Lee Fut system and/ or Lama Pai. I have material of this branch and it looks rather complete. But it is a different path. Incomplete? Not up to me make such a conclusion.

Kindest regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day everybody.

In my humble opinion, Hung Gar was developed from a Tiger stylist's roots, the core form being Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. I, myself, do feel that the Crane is under-represented in Hung Gar, although I am still very young in the style, which could mean that I have not experienced the Crane in Hung Gar in its fullness.

So far, the Crane techniques which I have learnt include using the wings to trap a hand (which is also present in NCK although the application and method is different), using the wings to strike and block (palm techniques) and the beak. There may be much more to the Crane than that, but I believe Hung Gar focuses more strongly on the Tiger, which I love.

As to the Crane being under-developed, maybe have a look at Wing Chun? I believe they hold their origins to a Crane stylist and they are a Cantonese art too?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day everybody.

In my humble opinion, Hung Gar was developed from a Tiger stylist's roots, the core form being Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. I, myself, do feel that the Crane is under-represented in Hung Gar, although I am still very young in the style, which could mean that I have not experienced the Crane in Hung Gar in its fullness.

So far, the Crane techniques which I have learnt include using the wings to trap a hand (which is also present in NCK although the application and method is different), using the wings to strike and block (palm techniques) and the beak. There may be much more to the Crane than that, but I believe Hung Gar focuses more strongly on the Tiger, which I love.

As to the Crane being under-developed, maybe have a look at Wing Chun? I believe they hold their origins to a Crane stylist and they are a Cantonese art too?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hi Tze Hou,

Oooops, you are right. When I speak of Cantonese, I was thinking more Hong-Lau-Choy-Li and Mok.

I, for one, believed and argued that Wing Chun is an offspring of White Crane – Fukien White Crane. By this I am inferring that Wing Chun is a branch of early days White Crane close to the source. Fuzhou Cranes are really more hybridized systems. The other system that I think drew heavily from White Crane is Hakka Praying Mantis.

It is extremely difficult now to trace histories – I tried but gave up. Remember the thread where we talked about names and dates – nothing conclusive ever came out for me.

Believed me, I visited enough clan associations in my quest.

So now I am looking at “relics” – principles/techniques and hopefully even entire form (however mutated) to establish kinship.

I will start a thread on Wing Chun / White Crane soon. Hoping to get Chas in on this one.

Hung Gar, to me, shows more tiger (with you on this one) and Lohan.

Had a discussion with a Sifu Leong here in Kuching – another lifelong CKF scholar. He is in his late 60s and is a veteran in both Cantonese and Fukien CKF.

When the topic of Hung Gar and Lohan came up, he told me to examine the 5 elements used in Hung Gar. Not the animals but the wood, metal………<br>
Well with the little that I know of HG 5 elements, I do see some overlapping.

Maybe this is where we should look next?

Evert?

Xie Xie.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

In my limited knowledge, the 5 elements can be classified as this:

Metal: Hits designed to cut, useful in attacking opponent's bridge.

Wood: Movements with a block and a punch simultaneously.

Water: Flowing attacks. The arm is swung from the shoulder and derives a lot of the power from the twisting of the stance and waist.

Fire: Short, straight attacks.

Earth: Attacks to uproot the opponent, characterised by a strong root and lifting attack. I was taught as an uppercut to the solar plexus.

These are the general ways in which I view the 5 elements, I am sure there is much more to the elements than that, only time and practice will reveal to me.

Are the White Crane's attacks similar to this? Or is it on a deeper level?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi Tze Hou,

Thank you for your response.
Your account of the 5 elements is very good.
I will leave my White Crane 5 elements for another day. Maybe I should just put you in my loop with Evert and Martin Watts. You are really very perceptive.

The keywords:-

1. Earth – uproot
2. Water – flow or wave
3. Metal – cut
4. Wood – many twigs or branches
5. Fire – burning or sparks

My 5 elements are comparable. Do you have Hsing I’s 5 elements poem – check those and you will find “the original” principles. I suppose the South got this from the North.

Lohan – my Siao Lim’s case includes many Water, Wood and Fire elements. In fact, when I said Hung Gar is more tiger and Lohan, I am using Fu-Hoc as reference. Besides the Crane and Tiger, the rest of the form looks very Lohan.

After “Dragon Waggling Tail”, you turn around to do the double-punch; this is a recurring technique in Lohan.

“Throwing ball into the waves” is another example.

Even “Stopping Car to ask directions” and “Drawing fist from under sleeves” is Lohan.

Coincidence?

[Nataraya]

Element play:

This week I did sent a friend in California a scan to ask him information about Lam Kuen. On that piece of paper – were notes from my Simo as brought back from Hong Kong in 1985. Some written answers about the Five Elements, as seen and practiced in our lineage!

I can say that my Sigung said that the Five Element presentation in Gung Ji and Fu Hoc are not being complete. In the form 'Ng Ying Ng Hang Kuen' the practitioner will be presented the best Element play in Hung Kuen.

Sigung Lai said also that Flower Boxing and Lam Kuen contains the most complex Element play in his curriculum. The problem then, is to make a distinction between these Element skills because the can act and presented together.

Please realize that this is written material as spread in our branch, and that my lineage have added Hung Kuen at a later stage. Also interesting might be to know that Flower Boxing said to be of Fukien region. Saying this I directly reflect my intuition about Element play in Fukien styles. As far as I understand this, they are very subtle movements/ techniques and certainly different then the (mainly) long bridge range Element play as presented in Hung Kuen. That said I directly make the distinction clear of both systems.

For example; “Monk Sounds the Bell” is a Lo Han skill but classified as a Wood skill, due to its simultaneous action. But also Monk Carries Wood, a simultaneous action of a block and punch at the same time. The Wood flavour of “Monk sounds the Bell” is not overwhelming, and ask for more.

Finally, we have an important section in Fu Hoc in which the Five Elements are presented with Chat Sing (seven star stepping). I would say, an almost classical section which represent – for beginning Hung Kuen students – an ideal first step to present each quality clearly. For the common Hung Kuen practitioner Ng Ying Ng Hang will be a must to understand the deeper layers.

Eric,

Personally I find Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen a ‘real’ Hung Kuen set. Together with Tit Sin Kuen you already would have good and proper Hung. Fu Hoc is there for variation and to play the enemies with more variety. So adding Fu Hoc to its curriculum will (surely) give the player more tools.

About Gung Ji. As written in my studyguide, my research did tell that there was a Siu lam Fook Fu Kuen first. From that some varieties came, such as LoHan Fook Fu Kuen. Much later the set Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen was created. Some lineage in Hung Kuen still teachers this form in two parts; namely as Fook Fu Kuen and as Gung Ji Kuen. Exactly how it was some centuries ago. Gung Ji Kuen is the new added part. And there are more varieties played in Malaysia; such as Daan Gung and Seung Gung. I believe absolutely that Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen is a rather new choreography, maybe 100 years old. The insider will ‘absolutely’ recognize the additions of Tit Sin Kuen in it. For the rest? I notice many Lo han skills in Fook Fu Kuen……

[Nataraya]

Quote:"Hung Gar, to me, shows more tiger (with you on this one) and Lohan."

Eric, this is your statement that keeps my mind terrorizing. Looking deep in my Heart, and the time I spend practicing and teaching the forms, I would say that I disagree. It is clear that Tiger Boxing play an important role. But the more I think about forms such as Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Ng hang Ng Ying Kuen, but also Fu Hoc, the more I need to conclude that the red line is LoHan.

maybe I need to say: Mainly LoHan presented in a Tiger modus? Or better, Lo Han as presented as the 'King of the Earth". Serious, Hung Kuen have (at mostly) four pillars, presenting 900 postures. Between them 10 Tiger Boxing techniques, mixed up (too) between the postures. And then saying tat Hung Kuen is Tiger orientated? Or do we start from fiction (?) and say that Hung hei kwoen did learn Tiger Boxing and married a Crane Boxer wife.............

I prefer to look to the ingredients,taste and flavor. Very easily nowadays with an overwhelming presentation of multimedia. Then, I would say: First Lohan, then Lohan, then.....Tiger. But, many practitioners, many beliefs.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Nataraya said:

Quote:"Hung Gar, to me, shows more tiger (with you on this one) and Lohan."

Eric, this is your statement that keeps my mind terrorizing. Looking deep in my Heart, and the time I spend practicing and teaching the forms, I would say that I disagree. It is clear that Tiger Boxing play an important role. But the more I think about forms such as Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Ng hang Ng Ying Kuen, but also Fu Hoc, the more I need to conclude that the red line is LoHan.

maybe I need to say: Mainly LoHan presented in a Tiger modus? Or better, Lo Han as presented as the 'King of the Earth". Serious, Hung Kuen have (at mostly) four pillars, presenting 900 postures. Between them 10 Tiger Boxing techniques, mixed up (too) between the postures. And then saying tat Hung Kuen is Tiger orientated? Or do we start from fiction (?) and say that Hung hei kwoen did learn Tiger Boxing and married a Crane Boxer wife.............

I prefer to look to the ingredients,taste and flavor. Very easily nowadays with an overwhelming presentation of multimedia. Then, I would say: First Lohan, then Lohan, then.....Tiger. But, many practitioners, many beliefs.

Warm regards,

Evert.

It is about time I start terrorizing you a bit.

I was talking Fu-Hoc – stated very clearly in my message. Sifu Leong, however, disagrees. Like you, he thinks Fu-Hoc is a later day’s insertion into the system.

I was told to look further back – here is my problem – I don’t know where to look and it is not really top of my priorities.

If we were to keep our attention to the migration of the Crane then looking at Hung Gar is probably not the best path. For your TSK, I see more or less the same quagmire. You need to cross the Hakka bridge to reach Fukien. If indeed the roots of TSK could be found in Fukien.

I want to look at Hakka more. From our very first correspondence till date, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Hakka is the bridge.

Lama and Choy Li Fut – well I did look and the Crane is of different origin in the case of Lama. Choy Li Fut is very eclectic. The Crane is there but not really playing an underlining status.

Be kind but I think CLF is more leopard, Lohan (again but in this case Buddha Palms) and even Bak Siu Lum. I say Bak Siu Lum to denote Northern styles – not certain which precisely.

[Nataraya]

Quote: "Hakka is the Bridge."

Then I am afraid my friend that you do not know hakka well enough. A harsh statement but it is true. I practice intensively Hakka styles, in fact still working on Pak Mei. Lung Ying and Hakka Lee Ga are systems found in Pak Mei Pai too. I have collected material about Chu Ga Tong Long and Chow Ga Tong Long (Ip Shui), and lately also Iron Ox. Simply because my 'love' is still strongly with the Hakka's, while the respect of my late teacher Jie Kon Siew, is still very strong.

Sat/ Sha is the motto of our system. The way we play the skill is aggressive, with a tremendous impact on 'violence'. The Pu Faat / Bu Fa is very different, the distinction between long and short hand, Zig zagging movements, handskills (phoenix eye fist), blocking, body posture. And I can go on and on, so different then TSK and/ or Hung Kuen. If there might be a bridge, then it is the same as K1 fighting and Tai Chi Chuan.

I sent you a clip which you rlate to old NCK. I se relations with Yong Chun. TSK has very limited footwork and the way of gathering and releasing, is special. besides the fact that history clearly are pointed towards Fukien Siu Lam Si.

Both Hakka and Fukien arts do have specific identities. That's what I see. The question is 'if' cantonese systems do have a specific face? The variety of systems in kwantung province, is so diverse!, that I asked myself if not all styles are eclectic. I know, this is a very offensive statement, but it is a PERSONAL point of view. For me it is easy to show any martial artist, five different hakka styles, five different Fukien styles and five different kwantung arts. And where do you see the diversity (mostly)? In Kwantung styles.

Canton city as the economical centre of Southern China, did lead to a wave of arts as practiced around that center. But I believe that it did lead to in an amalgation of forms and techniques. Fighting was then still a serious concept, so the "survival of the fittest' techniques survived.

Okay, I did throw out more then enough 'impressions' to trigger discussion. Aspects which are open statements, things you see, and things what are running through my brains.

Lately I see loads of kwantung martial arts systems, during converting video tapes to DVD discs. So these brainwaves are for me an actual impression, maybe foolish to launch, but worth to read other thoughts/ impressions about this. We are a serious family to share, and maybe you have the answer?

Best regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Granted my friend that I do not know Hakka deep enough to say for sure. Impressions are all I have to go on at this point in time.

We know that history is unreliable, considering the discrepancies.

So I am moving to the next scale – which is flavor. I stress, flavor and not even concepts or principles.

So, I have Fukien, Hakka and Cantonese in front of me and what do I see?

I see Hakka with traces from both sides. Logically, I deduce that Hakka is the melting pot.

I am downloading your 2 Hakka clips even as I type this. But you know what; I did in my time, touch hands with Hakka players. The Li Gar, Tong Long and even a little Lung Ying. I came away with the impression that we are “coming from the same place”.

These impressions are enough to tell me to stay on this course for a while longer.

Not arguing that most Canton styles are eclectic and composite. But what is evident is that it went through quite a metamorphosis.

It is like a little what Russ is saying. To see my crane, I need to look at Okinawa and not Japan.

[Eric Ling]

Evert, aaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

Now you are terrorizing my brains.

Just watched your Lung Ying and I could have sworn that I am looking at one of my Tai Chor forms.

Go to Russ's library and download his "Southern Tai Tzu" and compare.

Remember flavor,my friend, flavor.

The way you move, more or less, tell me your line.

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[essence]

Eric said:

My 5 elements are comparable. Do you have Hsing I’s 5 elements poem – check those and you will find “the original” principles. I suppose the South got this from the North.

Good day Eric.

Unfortunately, I do not have the poems, need your help in this area as my resources are very limited.

Another interesting thought I just had, if the 5 elements are applied from a Taoist perspective, would their principles carry more of a Yin Yang application?

Not to mean that Water subdues Fire whic subdues Metal which subdues Wood which subdues Earth and so on.

Rather, if the Yang principle of Water is to have flowing attacks, what would be its Yin principle? If Earth's Yang principle was to uproot, what would be its Yin principle?

I may be seriously out of line here, but is there such a thing?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou