Cho Ga Wing Chun

[Firehawk]

Other than the Wing Chun Kung Fu brought to Vietnam by Sifu Yuen Chai Wan , there was also a person who brought Wing Chun to Nam Yeung (Nan Yang in Mandarin ) a special term that means the countries around the Southern Coast of China . It was said that there was a martial art opera actor named So Kai Ming nicknamed Ching-Dan Kam or Kam the Main Female Character who learnt Wing Chun Kung Fu in the opera troupes . As an actor, he also learnt lion dance and some other styles of Kung Fu besides Wing Chun style .So Kai Ming was a native of thingy Yu (or Pan Yu in Mandarin ) After retirement, he went back to his hometown. There he opened an osteopathic clinic and taught Kung Fu to some natives .In thingy Yu, there was a youngster named Yip Kin . Yip Kin was a Kung Fu enthusiast. He learnt different kung fu styles under a few kung fu masters . Other than learning Wing Chun under Sifu So Kai Ming , he also learnt Hung Gar and the Yam -Yeung Bart-Gwai Kwun or the feminine and Masculine Eight -Diagram Long Pole Techniques from Sifu Yip Hang Sing ,five different kinds of weapon techniques from Sifu Cho Fei Hung and different kung fu styles from Sifu Yik Kam . Yip Kin later moved to Kuala Lumpur and setteled down there . He became a labor in the ore field . After he deafeated some bullies in a fight ,he became a hero. Soon he was employed by a boss of a ship company to work in there as a foreman. In the Mid 40 s , Yip Kin became a voulnter kung fu instructor for the charity organizations.He combined the Weng Chun kung fu techniques with the other styles he had learnt from different kung fu masters and called it the Malaysian Wing Choon Kung Fu . Between 1959 and 1961, with co-operation of Sifu Wong Yam Sun , Sifu Yip Kin established a Kung Fu asssociation in Malaysia called the Persatuan TinJu Wing Choon . In 2nd Jan 1968, Sifu Yip Kin passed away . Sifu Yip Fook Choi , succeeded his grandfathers position and became the cheif instructor of the association.According to Sifu Yip Fook Choi , there are two differet styles of Wing Chun the conservative one and the reformed one . The conservative style consists of three single training sets . However, two of the sets are missing . Whereas the reformed style conclude the Fa Kuen or Flowery Boxing set , Siu -Nim-Tau wich is also called Siu -Fa-Kuen or Little Flowery Boxing , and the Tit-Pou-Jarn or Iron-plated Elbows Set.There are many Kung Fu sets in the Malaysian Wing Choon style . Other than those sets such as the Fa-Kuen, Siu-Fa-Kuen and Tit-Pou-Jarn, there are also Chi-sau, Muk-Yan-Chong, Luk-Dim-thingy-Kwun,Yam-Yeung Bart-Gwai Kwun,Yeung-Mui Kwun or Arbutus Staff, Woo-Dip-Shang-Dao or Butterfly Broadswords, Mui-Fa Cheong or Plum Blossom Spear , Lau-Yip Shang-Dao or Willow-Leaf-like Double Broadswords , Fook-Fu Tai-Pai or Tiger-subduing Trident , Chun-Chau Tai-Dao or Spring -& Autumn Long-Handled Broadsword , Dan-Dao Tang-Pai or Single Broadsword & Rattan Sheild, Fei-Tok or Flying Plummet, Wang-Tau Tang or Long bench, Saam-Jeet-Kwun or Three-section-cudgel ,Lion Dancing , etc.

[Firehawk]

There were some more Wing Choon styles once developed in Malaysia .What a coincidence these Malaysian Wing Choon styles also developed in Pon Yu or ( Pan Yu in Mandarin ).It is not suprised if we know that there is a thingy Yu Wui Koon or Association of the Natives of thingy Yu in Malaysia, and the members there are all natives of thingy Yu. Therefore, once they wanted to open kung fu clases, the kung fu instructors were all from thingy Yu. This Wing Choon style in Penang was passed down by the late Grandmaster Sam Chan . Sam Chan was a student of Sifu Cho Shun . Cho Shun , nicknamed Dai-Ngan Shun , was the most outstanding student of So Kai Ming in the opera . Cho Shun was a famous kung fu actor in the Cantonese Opera . Same as his sifu , when Cho Shun retired ,he soon became a kung fu instructor teaching in the Luen Yee Koon or the Luen Yee Martial Arts School of thingy Yu. When Sam Chan moved to Malaysia , he lived in Ipoh and worked there . Sifu Sam Chan only taught Wing Choon to no more than six students . Cheong Way Bo was one of them . Cheong Way Bo lived in Penang . Since young , he learnt kung fu from uncle Cheong Hing , a great kung fu master in Malaysia. Later, he was recommended by his uncle to learn Wing Choon kung fu with Sifu Sam Chan in Ipoh for six years . In 1972 , he returned to Penang and was already 27 years old. He started to develope Wing Choon in his city. As to differentiate his style from the Yip Kin Wing Choon style, he named his style Ban Chung Wing Choon or the Wing Choon style of the Opera Troupes . The Wing Choon styles of the late Sifu Sam Chan are quite different from that of the Yip Kin Wing Choon style in Malaysia , though both of them claimed their techniques originated from the late Grandmaster So Kai Ming of thingy Yu. Obviously, it was because the late Grandmaster Yip Kin adds in some sets of the other styles and Ban Chung Wing Choon do not . In the Ban Chung Wing Choon the learners have to begin with the Yee-gee-kim-yeung-ma or Character Two Abduction Stance , Sup-bo-yee-gee-ma or the Ten Step Character Two stance , Chi Bart-Dim Lin-Wan-Kiu or the 8-point Chain-movements in Chi-Sau . Then the students have to practice the Sup-Saam-Sau or Thirteen hand-technique training. The second stage of training includes the Siu-Nim-Tau, Saam-Sing thingy-Lung Chong or the Three Star Coiling Dragon Piles, Wan-Yuen Chum-Kiu or the Harmonious of Heaven & Earth Sinking -Arms set, Noi-Ying Biu-Tze or the Internal style Thrusting Fingers set, Saam-Cha Chin-Cheung or the Three Side Arrow like Palms set , Fa-Kuen or Flowery Boxing set, Chat-Sing Kuen or Seven Star Boxing set .The third stage includes Saam-Jeet Lok-Ying Kuen or the Three -Sectional Lower-Flying-Eagle set, Luk-Dim-thingy-Kwun- or the six & a half Point Long Pole with Thirteen Spear -Techniques , Luk-Dim-thingy-Kwun-Fat or the six & a half Point Long Pole Techniques and Yan-Gee-Bart-Cham-Dao or the Character Eight-Cutting-Section Broadsword Techniques . Another Wing Choon school in Penang was run by Sifu Cho Hung Choy . The Wing Choon Kung Fu techniques he learnt are also said to be originated from thingy Yu . However, I have not too much information about this style in hand .

[Eric Ling]

Hi Firehawk,

First off, welcome to WLTT.

You are apparently a WingChuner but could you let us know more about yourself?

Okay, I don’t do Wing Chun. If you go to the “Who are you” thread, you’ll find my little Kung Fu education background.

My curiosity in Wing Chun is more one of history or more particularly as part of the trail of Fukien/Fuzhou White Crane from Fukien to Canton.

You must be conscious of the hypothesis that Wing Chun and White Crane could be the same art. This is something that I picked up from many old Kung Fu veterans in my part of the world – NanYang.

I have witnessed Wing Chun of various streams performed over the years in Singapore and Malaysia. And like you described they come in all shapes and sizes.

One that stands out is a Sifu who did just one long form. And according to him, his system is based entirely on this 1 form and not the usual 3 that you find in most other lines.

In fact, I got this old Sifu on micro-tape doing this form and I am still trying to get it converted for on-line posting.

During one of my recent trips back to Singapore, I bumped into this Sifu again and had a nice conversation about his Wing Chun again.

And very interestingly, his position is that his Wing Chun is a definite derivative of Fuzhou White Crane.

[Firehawk]

Hi Eric , One thing that you can know about me is my name is Robert and i am old 35 tobe exact , the Wing Chun you speak of is probably Cho Ga Wing Chun that has one long form you see Yip Man type Wing Chun has three hand forms while Cho Ga Wing Chun has one but it has sections in it that account for the other two forms Chum kiu and Bill Jee Cho Ga Wing Chun combines it into one long form . I have see Nanyang Cho Ga Wing Chun on video tape that i have of a Sifu named Y. Wu i have seen alot of the Cho Ga forms that i have on video tape the video tape i got from Singapore . i also a sifu doing a Fukien White Crane form on video tape and also the Grandmaster of Chuka Shaolin Phoenix eye fist from Malaysia on video tape doing the Kay San form , i have a rare Hakka style on video tape called Hakka Unicorn style they use the Phoenix eye fist Eagle claw and two sword fingers and a whipping type ging .

[Firehawk]

Hi Eric , I forgot to say that i do know about the debate as to Wing Chun comes from Fukien White Crane there is a guy named Hendrik Santos that post on another forum who talks about it all the time he is a practioner of Cho Ga Wing Chun i even tride do do research on this subject myself back in 1997 ,1998, and 1999 , but i gave it up and i am not sure where Wing Chun comes from , i know that i like these chinese arts like Fukien White Crane and Wing Chun that have the short sets .

[Eric Ling]

Hi Robert,

I think it would be good to investigate what set a Fukien,Hakka and Cantonese style apart.

What are the traits or flavor of these systems? You know I have never really thought of putting these down in writing simply because growing up in SE Asia, surrounded by experts from all these groups, I just kind of take certain things for granted.

Now I realized that, due to numerous reasons, differentiation is getting tougher and tougher.

One prime cause must be departure from how traditional Kung Fu was taught and practiced. And this is happening everywhere.

I said this in some other thread and that is you could almost tell right away what system one is from by just looking at how that person moves.

Believe me when I say Fukinese, Hakka or Cantonese express their fighting skills very differently.I touch hands with folks from the various streams and they all have their dissimilar ways of fighting.

Wing Chun (except maybe for Yip Man’s line) has always appeared “Fukien” to me. The “Cho” style with the one single form is a good example.

Hakka styles also show strong Fukien touches. Regardless what whether you are talking Southern Praying Mantis, Bak Mei, Lung Ying or Chu Gar, the Fukien flavor is easily noticeable.

Members in this forum are convergent to the view that oral history is undependable.

Personally, I think we have to reflect on history (oral or written) and more significantly inspect the actual skills involved.

A macro view would then be general physical expression before we zoom into the nitty-gritty.

[Om]

Firehawk has the history of Cho Family mess up.

Yip Kin's art via Yip Fook choi is different from the Cho Gar or the Yik Kam art preserve by Cho Gar.

Check out


www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/choga.html

www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/yipkin.html

www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/historical/cho_santo01.html


Siu-Liem-Tau of Yik Kam is different to Siu -Fa-Kuen or Little Flowery Boxing , and the Tit-Pou-Jarn or Iron-plated Elbows Set from Yip Kin's line.


The Yik Kam siu Liem Tau is known that its components come from White Crane Eng Chun and Emei 12 Zhuang mix.

Thus, the power generation conditioning of Yik Kam's Siu Liem Tau is different then the BaFen of the Mother White Crane Eng Chun method.

[Firehawk]

Actualy those two writeings come from Leung Tings Roots and Branches of Wing Chun book if there is a mess up it is Leung Ting who wrote them .

[Om]

Dear Firehawk,

No issue lah.

In Penang, we say, " all believe in Book is better to not have book."


Dear Eric,

May I asked who is the old sifu you mention about who did just one long form?

[Firehawk]

Hi Om no problem at all i just like history and short handed arts .

[Om]

Dear Mr. Firehawk

I had seen a video tape of some one in Singapore doing some Advance Siu Liem Tau set going to America. That is terrible.

Let me open up a secret of Cho Ga's Yik Kam Wing Chun Kuen teaching I hearf from my Penang friends

The inch shock power was taught even in thier 10 steps YJKYM basic set. Without good knowing on the basic. One Can do lots of sets which look a like to Cho Ga's or Yik Kam sets but not that usefull La.


The Yip Kin Wing Chun might be a white Crane Yong Chun.

One can check this from Yip Fook-choi's early picture and look at the poster in the wall of his school. That poster seems to be similar to the White Crane Yong Chun's poster where the fire was written in upside down.

While the Cho family doesnt have these type of poster in thier school.

[Nataraya]

Dear Om and Firehawk,

I am very interested in the art known as Cho Gar, especially because of the overall general curriculum. This might sound negative, but it is NOT meant to sound offensive. In fact I believe there is much more a geographic formation then others would state in first instance. let's look to the curriculum of Cho Ga:

Application forms

1. Chit (intercept) Kuen
2. Sui Ta (miscellanous striking)
3. Chui Ta (chase and hit)
4. Choy li fut (long form developed in Cho family)
5. Fa kuen
6. Fu hok seung ying (wing chun style)
7. Jin Jeung (arrow palm)
8. Cui pat sin ( drunken form)
9. Jin chui (arrow punch)
10. Fuk Fu Jarng (subdue tiger elbows)
11. Sam juen jeung (3 turning palms)
12. Tit sin kuen (iron wire fist)
13. Bagua sum (eight trigram centre)
14. Wing chun kuen (everlasting spring boxing)

Several forms do touch my interests, because they are in our curriculum too. Such as Fa Kuen, TSK, FHSYK, Choy Paat Sien, and maybe the Wing Chun form (although we have three, no not the Yip man versions).

Can you shine some light on Fa Kuen and TSK for instance?

Thank you very much for your attention,

Evert.

[Nataraya]

Sorry for another question to mister OM, but I wasn't sharp,

Quote:

The Yip Kin Wing Chun might be a white Crane Yong Chun.

One can check this from Yip Fook-choi's early picture and look at the poster in the wall of his school. That poster seems to be similar to the White Crane Yong Chun's poster where the fire was written in upside down.

While the Cho family doesnt have these type of poster in thier school.

Your are stating some VERY important aspects, I must say. Wind - Fire is a very important sign, with deeper layers. Is there a way to see that poster, or have a little scanned version? Are you sure that this "Fire" sign was in a Yong Chun White Crane hall? I asked my friend, who will visit next month the Pan family again in Yong Chun, to search for these signs, as well the deities. You truly raised my heartbeat with that particular piece of text. Thank you!

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Firehawk]

Hi Evert , If Om is who i think he is Hendrik Santos he can tell you all about Cho Ga Wing Chun he is a sifu in that system i believe like 30 years he can tell you all about Cho Ga .

[Firehawk]

Evert here is a picture of Yip Kin at this link
www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/yipkin.html