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Post by Om on Jan 20, 2005 23:57:49 GMT -5
1) Centerline (guarding yours, taking theirs) 2) Grounding 3) Relaxation 4) Economy of Motion (this includes simultaneous attack/defense) 5) Forward Pressure.....
One taboo topic which I hope you will be able to shed some light on for me is the fabled One Inch Punch. I know inch power is found within many Southern arts, but it is the Wing Chun One Inch Punch which is famous and known world-wide. Many people say that if you draw back, even another inch or two, that is cheating, but in my opinion, to be able to deliver a crushing blow from 3 inches is still highly effective. What are your thoughts on this? My friend has discussed this a little with me, and according to him, if you drop your back leg in order to generate the power, then it is not pure (completely in his words). Can you explain this a little more to me?
Stance/mobility Fourth Door (relates to my Centerline interpretation) outside AND inside Inching forward (the fabled Centipede style kung fu?!) Power generation Inch punch
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nice modern scientific logical way of look at Wing Chun, a great start, but none of these path will get to advance. Because everything scatered and fragmented and intelecturized.
Inch Punch? one inch Two inch Three Inch? how about Zero inch and doing it with every part of the body?
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Post by Om on Jan 21, 2005 10:47:04 GMT -5
Am I confuse everyone here with my chap Chai dish?
Think about it. if you are asked to describe a dish of Chap Chai or Chap Sui for those in America. How are you going to describe it? If you seperate the vegi, the source, .... item by item then it is no longer telling the whole or reality.
Now, the biggest problem in Wing Chun Kuen for past 50 years is people trying to make it simple for the beginer.
So similar to the food court or Kopitien, people just standardize a few ingradients and some easy fomulars. It is a great thing at first to help the begineer to be able to cook the dish. But, later it cause big problem because the begineer didnt remember how the Chap Chai taste and look as thier sifu cook. They remember only --- that few ingradients and how many minutes it has to be in the wok.
Now, without knowing that taste and look.... of what the sifu present. the same ingradient might not even become chap chai. and Chap chai is lost.
So, if one wants to master Chap Chai, one has to go taste it from how those old master made and thier variation. discussing the principle and the techniques of how to prepare chap chai is not going to be good if one has never taste Chap Chai. and What if you move to America where there is not chinese vegi and use microwave cooking there? how are you going to make chap chai?
Those fomulars and principles and techniques for chap chai are dead stuff. As the old chinese said, Lien Si Kuat or train with Remember a dead formula.
Advance making of Chap Chai has to be that one can make Chap Chai from any vegi and any location. Not about Lien Si Kuat.
One can compare and talk about all those si kuat all day long until forever but it is not going give one what is the taste of a Chap Chai.
So, forget about those demo inch punch, doesnt matter 1,2,3,4.... inch. the question is can you bounce whatever touch you while in action? otherwise, that is just another components without life.
in the ancient time, people talk about Seh, (like pai seh or seh lat), similar to the pek hok Chit-nio chap go seh. and some principles of the seh.....
beside Teo Yeo Chiu which Ngo Cho or Wing Chun adapted from pek hok eng chun, they talked about Teo Yeo Seh.
how to generate the Seh, use the seh... is similar to how to make the taste of chap chai.
it is still not the ultimate. but it is getting much closer to whole then what one sees today.
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Post by Seeker on Jan 21, 2005 11:43:41 GMT -5
Om: Thanks for your comments With all due respect, i feel that the secret to the advanced stuff is a thorough understanding of the fundamentals. While i recognize that it might seem tedious to cover such simple ground, i believe that it is via this comprehension of basics that one can reach advanced concepts. As for the one inch (or zero) punch - this is a subject of deep fascination for many, but i don't want to focus too much on that particular one here -- maybe for another thread? I welcome any contribution you have to this analysis that would help, or if you feel it necessary, lets start another thread. thanks Chas
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Post by Om on Jan 21, 2005 11:51:49 GMT -5
i feel that the secret to the advanced stuff is a thorough understanding of the fundamentals. While i recognize that it might seem tedious to cover such simple ground, i believe that it is via this comprehension of basics that one can reach advanced concepts.
That is true. But it is just a Believe.
martial art talks about reproduceable process to make things happen and not just believe.
one can know all about the fundamental tan bong fok... fomulars.... to master the fundamental.
But, If one doesnt know about seh, there is no way one can effectively defend oneself to, say, grapple's take down. similar to one can be great master of si kuat but when something new comes up, one will have a big problem.
As for the inch power, that too. one can do all and train all one wants but one is not going to be know about proper inch power generation if one doesnt know what is an inch power generation.
similar to one can train and make perfect on dead lifting. but one doesnt know a squat on squat lifting. and that is day and night different between dead lifting and squat.
without the inch power, there is no wing chun kuen because wing chun kuen is based on a unique way of producing seh.
so, my point is that a certain view can only bring one up to a certain level.
like the worker in the kopitien, they can only cook what they have fomulars. disregard of how great thier cooking. they will not be come a real cook if they just investigate the fomulars or cheat sheet note.
compare and discussion about cheat sheet note of fast food mcdonals is going to yield better cheat sheet note or more fast food but not likely great chap chai.
There is no secret. But the problem is one doesnt know enough to see the full picture.
Therefore, to discuss Wing Chun principles/techniques one has to first know what is wing chun in multi dimentional view.
Seh is one of the vehicle the ancient used for describing multi dimentional view. power generation is a part of the dynamic of seh. cant be seperate.
so, discussion of principle/technics without the power generation and the big picture seh is paper talk.
I understand my view is different from yours. and that is what I purposely bring up. Because principle, techniques all depend on view. different view will yield different stuffs.
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Post by Seeker on Jan 21, 2005 12:21:32 GMT -5
That is true. But it is just a Believe. martial art talks about reproduceable process to make things happen and not just believe. ....I understand my view is different from yours. and that is what I purposely bring up. Because principle, techniques all depend on view. different view will yield different stuffs. Om Thank you for your astute and well-spoken view. I don't think our views differ as much as you might think. As for believe. Here in the ether of a digital forum, we cannot touch hands. We cannot feel, cannot KNOW each others' fa jin. So, really this is all just words and all believe (or no believe). Your words indicate a deeper understanding than mine. I would like to read more. (And if i were lucky, some day I could actually feel (and thus know) your concept of seh!) But for now, i will take just paper talk! thanks chas
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Post by Om on Jan 21, 2005 13:01:33 GMT -5
As for believe. Here in the ether of a digital forum, we cannot touch hands. We cannot feel, cannot KNOW each others' fa jin. So, really this is all just words and all believe (or no believe). ** I disagree with you. just reading how people describe general stuffs one will know what kind of Chap Chai it can be. Your words indicate a deeper understanding than mine. I would like to read more. (And if i were lucky, some day I could actually feel (and thus know) your concept of seh!) **I know I am strecthing limit here for the fun of discussion. so everyone has fun. those Seh stuffs is not my invention. everything has seh. Chinese always said Pai Seh in Taiwan to SEA. Our Malay and Indian brothers or sisters know about that term Pai Seh. until one has all the fundamental ready, such as an army with every sectors can be manual as the commandor wish. Then the real game started, the game of Seh. Before that, one doesnt have the invitation for the real game. and having the invitation still need to know about seh to play. chinese art chinese philosophy, find out what SunTzu said about Seh www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html#05But for now, i will take just paper talk! ** As it said in Chinese and says in SEA, "Hang Chia Ye Chuu Shou, pien Tze you mei you." Everything is a listerning. digital or paper or clap of the single palm. is about listerning.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 21, 2005 17:48:17 GMT -5
As for believe. Here in the ether of a digital forum, we cannot touch hands. We cannot feel, cannot KNOW each others' fa jin. So, really this is all just words and all believe (or no believe). ** I disagree with you. just reading how people describe general stuffs one will know what kind of Chap Chai it can be. Your words indicate a deeper understanding than mine. I would like to read more. (And if i were lucky, some day I could actually feel (and thus know) your concept of seh!) **I know I am strecthing limit here for the fun of discussion. so everyone has fun. those Seh stuffs is not my invention. everything has seh. Chinese always said Pai Seh in Taiwan to SEA. Our Malay and Indian brothers or sisters know about that term Pai Seh. until one has all the fundamental ready, such as an army with every sectors can be manual as the commandor wish. Then the real game started, the game of Seh. Before that, one doesnt have the invitation for the real game. and having the invitation still need to know about seh to play. chinese art chinese philosophy, find out what SunTzu said about Seh www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html#05But for now, i will take just paper talk! ** As it said in Chinese and says in SEA, "Hang Chia Ye Chuu Shou, pien Tze you mei you." Everything is a listerning. digital or paper or clap of the single palm. is about listerning. Hi Om. Like I said many times, Wu Lin Tien Ti is nothing more than Hua San Lun Chien. And you are perfectly right, Hang Chia Ye Chuu Shou, pien Tze you mei you. So can I suggest those "mei you" are here to learn and "you" to guide. Of course, sometimes these get mixed up a little. But then again Sir, there are many ways to the top. Using different paths is really a matter of choice. And when we do cross paths, like in Wu Lin Tien Ti, I humbly think we should reach out to touch in the name of Wu Lin brotherhood and not anything else. Pardon me if I sound old-fashioned in these days of digital dominance. The medium might have changed, the "SPIRIT" stays. Can we work towards "Yi Jia" ? Xie Xie.
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Post by Om on Jan 21, 2005 18:47:57 GMT -5
Hi Om.
Like I said many times, Wu Lin Tien Ti is nothing more than Hua San Lun Chien. And you are perfectly right, Hang Chia Ye Chuu Shou, pien Tze you mei you.
So can I suggest those "mei you" are here to learn and "you" to guide.
Of course, sometimes these get mixed up a little.
But then again Sir, there are many ways to the top. Using different paths is really a matter of choice.
And when we do cross paths, like in Wu Lin Tien Ti, I humbly think we should reach out to touch in the name of Wu Lin brotherhood and not anything else.
Pardon me if I sound old-fashioned in these days of digital dominance.
The medium might have changed, the "SPIRIT" stays.
Can we work towards "Yi Jia" ?
Xie Xie. -----------------------------------------
Dear Eric,
Thanks for your politeness.
However, there is a problem here that I would like to point out to you. Not to argue with you but there is a reason. and it is not about old ways or new ways it is about is it a honest way.
The topic is about Wing Chun Principle/Techniques. to discuss about Wing Chun Principle/Techniques is serious stuffs.
You are right There are many ways to the top but they all have the same core direction. That is Tze Tze che Tze Che, Pu Tze Che pu Tze. or knowing is knowing, not knowing is not knowing. At least, for anyone on the top or on the way to the top know this very clearly.
1, it is a fact that just reading some one's post one can know about a lots of things.
for example, If you are from Singapore and people ask you to describe where is a great shopping area. You will spontaneously say something like Orchad road or people's park....
Now, if one is telling others -- oh, go to the airport, get out from the airport and call a taxi.... Then one knows where is that leading to.
So, the You or Mei You can be read without issue at all.
2, There is nothing about humble or not humble at all when it comes to something like Fa Jing. either one can do it or one cannot.
So, one cant say I believe this way or that way. But,
When a BJJ rush forward to take one dow or facing a Muay Thai's kick. There is no "I believe this might" it is either just do it or can do it.
Saying that I agree with you, people has to be humble. But humble is an attitude of embracement. Attitude of capable to embrace doesnt contradicted with to find out and to present what is a fact.
But, Using Humble to give face is a big problem in Chinese martial art. and the cost is lost misarablely in the competition with other styles.
Saying that I am not encourage people to be rude or disrespect. But, Facts have to be presented because Facts is more important then face.
As it was said, Chong Yen Ni er li yi shing or the honest word is not great to listen to but great to help one's act.
I know i am pushing limit here.
But, how do one do inch power? it is a fact that if one cannot have the Kung to do inch power then one's Siu Lien Tou has not much function at all.
It is your choice either to list all the principle and techniques and feeling great about it.
and
It is also your choice either to see clearly what happen so that when the Bjj guy rush in you know what to do.
I like what Mao Tze Tung said: Bring up your big gun if you want the enemy to drop thier gun.
I also like what the confusious teach.
But, what confusious teach cannot substitute for what the Mao Tze Tung Said.
and
I dont think technical discussion has anything todo with ---
But then again Sir, there are many ways to the top. Using different paths is really a matter of choice.
And when we do cross paths, like in Wu Lin Tien Ti, I humbly think we should reach out to touch in the name of Wu Lin brotherhood and not anything else.
because it is pure technical nothing personal.
So, I leave my case here for you all to think about.
Pardon me if I sound "hard line". And, if I dont treat everyone as "Yi Jia" i will not post what I have post.
disagreement doesnt mean disroyal. Critics doesnt means put down. saying that I would like to admit it is not an easy stuffs and there are room for we all (include me) to improve.
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Post by Seeker on Jan 21, 2005 19:17:31 GMT -5
The topic is about Wing Chun Principle/Techniques. to discuss about Wing Chun Principle/Techniques is serious stuffs. ------------------------------------------------------- Hi Om: Maybe you take this too seriously! to quote Yamamoto Tsunetomo: "Matters of great concern should be treated lightly." or maybe this matter of Wing Chun principles is of small concern, in which case, to continue the quote: "Matters of small concern should be treated seriously."
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Post by Seeker on Jan 21, 2005 19:20:52 GMT -5
2, There is nothing about humble or not humble at all when it comes to something like Fa Jing. either one can do it or one cannot. So, one cant say I believe this way or that way. But, When a BJJ rush forward to take one dow or facing a Muay Thai's kick. There is no "I believe this might" it is either just do it or can do it. ------------------------------------------- Om: I think Yoda said it best: "there is no 'try.' Do or do not." (or something to that effect. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Om on Jan 21, 2005 19:25:51 GMT -5
Maybe you take this too seriously! to quote Yamamoto Tsunetomo: "Matters of great concern should be treated lightly." ** Sure I can be I think Yoda said it best: "there is no 'try.' Do or do not." (or something to that effect. ** the question now is how to do it? isnt that a serious matter? as i alway tell you, I am pushing the limit and stirring things hot so everyone join this discussion:D Ok Next time, I take your position and we switch side to defend. that is fun. It is like Zhou Pak Tong in the Sieh Diao Ying Shiung Zhuan. one hand plays with the other hand. Great isnt it?
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Post by Seeker on Jan 21, 2005 22:45:46 GMT -5
** the question now is how to do it? isnt that a serious matter? Ok Next time, I take your position and we switch side to defend. that is fun. ------------------------------------------------------ if it is serious to you, then serious it is. since you bring it up - how do YOU do it? ok - switch sides is good - i like to have fun.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 21, 2005 23:32:33 GMT -5
Hi Gentlemen,
Go ahead play. Spill some blood even, happens all the times in physical training.
As long as the ART emerge the winner, we can say that we are worthy sons.
Thank you.
Ps. And Chas, no 45mm and cute little doggies…………..
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Post by Seeker on Jan 24, 2005 18:07:31 GMT -5
Om:
I am very eager to see your contribution regarding the inch punch (of whatever metric you choose) and the fa jin required for it...
cheers
chas
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Post by Seeker on Jan 24, 2005 18:14:28 GMT -5
And feel free to indulge in as much Chap Chai expression as you like in order to convey the true seh! cheers chas
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