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Post by Seeker on Nov 27, 2004 17:18:25 GMT -5
There seem to be two main schools of thought in shifting in the Wing Chun world. One (the one I come from) shifts on the heels, that is to say the pivot point is in the heel area of the foot when shifting for power generation/center facing (evading). The other is what i've heard referred to as "K1" shifting, which uses a point more in the middle of the foot. Still others shift on the ball of their foot.
What are the thoughts out there on the relative merits (or lack thereof) of each school of shifting thought?
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Post by mack59 on Nov 29, 2004 12:22:19 GMT -5
Hey Tongmoon: I agree with you. Shifting on the heels maintains the most stable position in Wing Chun. The heels should be a direct link between the body and the floor. The waist and entire body should be shifting as one. If the student turns on the toes or the center of the foot, the whole body will swing off center. In addition, shifting on the toes will support the body weight, but consequently the student will lose control of maintaining his/her balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance.
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Post by Seeker on Nov 29, 2004 14:07:47 GMT -5
Hey mac:
Good to see you here!
Do you think that shifting on the heels sets one up for poor mobility? If you look at the bio-mechanics of the foot, the natural thing to do is to pivot the heel up so that the weight is centered on the ball of the foot, so that mobility is enhanced by using the calf muscles. This in theory puts us heel shifters at a disadvantage for moving.
thoughts?
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 29, 2004 19:48:44 GMT -5
Hey mack59, Welcome to our small tea house. Are you, by any chance, with the Colorado School Of Wing Chun & Sifu Bart Mann? Any students/associates of Bart is a friend here. Thank you.
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Post by mack59 on Nov 30, 2004 16:31:36 GMT -5
hey Eric. Thanks. yes, and I am a student of the Colorado School of Wing Chun under Sifu Mann and Sifu Swizter. I will be happy to share this with the brothers
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Post by mack59 on Dec 2, 2004 17:26:55 GMT -5
Chas, yes looking it from that perspective I see your point. But my perspective is, when shifting on the toes, you will tend to lean forward and can easily get up-rooted. The natural tendency is that you will have to push off the ground a bit to get your toes to pivot. Here is my point, when shifting on the toes, the individual tend lose grounding- i.e., he can be easier uprooted when shifting. Shifting the toes does not allow advantages for kicks or mobility as you will be easily uprooted and you will lose a sense of balance as you fall forward. Remember, shifting is initiated by the action of the knees turning in unison. It's very important to remember that the waist and entire bodyare equally involved.
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KPM
New Member
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Post by KPM on Jan 22, 2005 13:31:38 GMT -5
Greetings all!
I realize this is now an old thread, but how about an alternative perspective on this topic? The heel pivot vs. the K1 pivot is a major biomechanical difference between different versions of WCK. I studied and practiced Augustine Fong's version of WCK which uses the heel pivot for many years. Now I study Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK whichs pivots on the K1 point, so I have pretty extensive knowledge of both methods.
Realize that most non-Yip Man Wing Chun versions pivot on the K1 point, including Pin Sun WCK, Yuen Kay Shan WCK, and Yik Kam (Cho Ga) WCK. When standing in the YGKYM with good Kim Sut, the weight should be centered at the middle of the arch of the foot near the K1 point, and not back on the heels. From a biomechanical standpoint, pivoting on the heels requires you to transfer greater than 50% of your weight onto your heels, even if only for a moment. This is an inherently weaker position that can be unbalanced more easily to the rear. Pivoting on the K1 point keeps the weight forward, without being over the toes, still allowing the toes to act as a stabilizing factor. If one keeps their center, then it is not easy to unstabilize forward or to the rear. When pivoting on K1, the waist leads the motion, not the knee. This is a different method of power generation than that typically used with the heel pivot. It is part of the "snake body", important for the "inch" or "short" power, and is one factor that makes some WCK similar to some White Crane. I could go into more detail, but gotta run. :-)
Keith
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Post by mack59 on Jan 25, 2005 11:32:22 GMT -5
hi Keith:
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Post by mack59 on Jan 25, 2005 11:40:03 GMT -5
HI Keith, not sure what happened on that last transmission. Anyway, I am intrigued with the K1 concept. If you have the time, I would like to look at this in depth. But there was something you mentioned, " When pivoting on K1, the waist leads the motion, not the knee." Not sure if you were implying that the heel concept leads with the knee, but for clarification sake, the heel concept is executed with the knee and hip in harmony, i.e., as one. Looking forward to hearing more about the K1 concept. thanks!
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KPM
New Member
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Post by KPM on Jan 27, 2005 6:01:00 GMT -5
Hi Mack!
Anyway, I am intrigued with the K1 concept. If you have the time, I would like to look at this in depth.
---No problem. See below.
But there was something you mentioned, " When pivoting on K1, the waist leads the motion, not the knee." Not sure if you were implying that the heel concept leads with the knee, but for clarification sake, the heel concept is executed with the knee and hip in harmony, i.e., as one.
---This is true, but the knee still leads the motion more so than the hip. I've had it described to me like this....the knee holds the stance in the same way that you hold a pencil near the tip for added stability and control. The point is that there is a different biomechanic involved in the two pivoting methods that affects show power is generated. But to get back to the K1 pivot itself, here is a summary:
---I practiced WCK from a Yip Man lineage that pivots on the heels for many years. Then when a discussion on the topic came up on the WCML I was convinced to give the K1 pivot a fair trial and really liked it. Not long after that I became part of a Pin Sun WCK lineage that teaches to pivot on the K1 point. So I thought I would provide what I have found to be advantages to pivoting on the K1 point. This is not to say that pivoting on the heels is wrong. Other's mileage may vary. :-)
IMHO, these are some of the good points about the K1 pivot:
1. Good balance. In just about any human motion involving using the feet the toes are used for balance. When pivoting on K1 you can still "grip" the ground with the toes providing excellent stability. The weight also stays forward near the center of the foot rather than rocking back to the heels even momentarily. This also increases balance and stability.
2. Good safety. The K1 pivot, even when using a 50/50 weight distribution as in the Pin Sun system, takes you off of the line of attack. Therefore your defensive motions become more deflective in nature and you are in a safer position. If one needs to pivot, the pivot itself should be part of the defensive response. I look at it this way..... IMHO, two key principles in WCK are simplicity and efficiency. What is the simplist and most efficient way to avoid a punch?.....to not be at the end of it when it arrives! So what should one of your primary first line defenses in WCK be?......to get out of the way! What's the simplist and most efficient method to get out of the way?.....to pivot in such a way that your body is taken off the line of attack! If you are off the line of attack, then adding in defensive motions with the hands/arms is just "icing on the cake" and "extra insurance."
3. Good rooting/sinking. Since the weight stays centered near the middle of the foot rather than transferring back to the heels, this encourages the knees to converge more in the stance. This leads to better sinking. And again, since the weight does not transfer back to the heels even momentarily, one can stay rooted more easily.
Some additional points to keep in mind:
1. Just because the K1 spot is the pivot point, this does not mean you are up on the balls of your feet. Even though the heels are "swinging" during the pivot, they do not leave the ground but rather slide across the surface.
2. Likewise, when the heel is used as the pivot point, one does not "rock back" completely on the heels and let the front of the foot come off the ground. When the toes "swing", they too just slide across the surface.
3. However, given the above two points, biomechanically greater than 50% of the weight distribution has to be either at the K1 point for the heels to "swing", or at the heels for the toes to "swing." IMHO, keeping the weight forward near the center of the foot and pivoting off of the line of attack are the two major advantages to the K1 method of pivoting.
The above is just my opinion, and in no way should be seen as an attack on anyone else's way of doing things. Just wanted those that have never seen the K1 pivot to have the right info.
Keith
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garuda
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by garuda on Jan 28, 2005 1:42:30 GMT -5
K1 is nice but incomplete.
There are 4 areas in the feet which are needed to be look at.
The old saying said,
Young Chuan (K1) is no root. Waist is no master. the willow spine bending similar to boneless. waving one hand turn into thousand hands.
So, it is great to start with K1 or heel. but how can one points become the only point?
when the whole body turn into Awareness. Then, only Then the real fun begin. Who shift who not shifting? Awareness shifting or Awareness is all over ?
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 28, 2005 3:32:17 GMT -5
First HS, welcome to the forum,
I would say, start discussions and we will see who might be respond. Sounds interesting!
About the old saying, are you able to send us the version in Chinese? Truly love to face the Chinese, if possible also the source where it comes from. I guess from a Wong Chun book?
In shifting you have a central point to rotate. I am afraid that you underestimate the qualification of such an important energetic point as K1. The qualities can be seen as Lao-gong, Ming Men, etceteras. Points which can regulate/ open dynamically and can have a great impact on the final Geng/ Jing.
“Waist is no master”, every serious movement we make is initiated from the centre of gravity, or the lower Tantien. In external martial arts we use different terms such as Yiu Fok (lower abdomen), Lower Tantien, waist, pelvic region, etceteras.
See it in line with the words “waving one hand turns into 1000 hands”. Don’t take it too literary. I see you have affinity with (Chan) Buddhism and surely understand what I mean? What you see/ read is not what it means, hahahahaha.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by mack59 on Jan 28, 2005 9:38:44 GMT -5
Now this is interesting... I am also studying Soaring Crane Qigong and once you mentioned the Yong Quan as a pivotal, this is becoming more interesting. In Soaring Crane, the Yong Quan is an important point through which qi is discharged, especially in the fourth routine. Yong Quan also mingles inner qi with the qi from earth...
Believe me, I am not criticizing anything, I just like the different theory/concepts behind this. It is good to keep an open mind...
Thanks !!!! Mack59
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garuda
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by garuda on Jan 28, 2005 11:41:27 GMT -5
when I was young. I too facinating about the K1 the heels the Qi points. Dantient. Waist. internal . external...
how is this K1.... got to do with Fajing? Shock power? static? dynamic? increasing your power? Moving fluidly? what is it? what is it? Does it means something or does it just some reference to start...
what is it really means? miracle? momentum? does it even make one's SLT better? Or as it said in Zen Buddhism ---Merely "useful" names, They are without real meaning. And Everyone is running around the "usefull" names to show how intelecturized they are but without a real meaning.
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 28, 2005 12:40:42 GMT -5
HS,
I can understand why you are not that popular against boards. You shoot a lot of bullets but are not able to score. Lot of technical terms, but it stay with terms, hardly any motivation. Maybe try to strengthen that weak chain, unless your age? Strange enough your actions remind me to someone, need a bit more time I guess.......
There are practitiners onboard with probably much more age/ experience then you, but are still able to communicate with respect and in a constructive manner. Please do us a favor and try to walk that path, as a noble Buddhist.
You have talk a lot about "Real thing". It seems that you know the "real thing", please try and take the time to show us that we are following illusions.
It is/was our drive to make the Wu Lin Tien Ti forum a nice small board in which a novice and a teacher were able to communicate, and learn from each other. This all in the light of respect and spiritual development. No big ego's and "I know it all" statements. Most people on board are still searching, like I am. Please let us search for the 'real thing'. Consider if this is a place you want to stay, although with some more text references you could be a very nice addition on this board. Communication is the key......
Thank you,
Evert.
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