Collation of White Crane Ð Wing Chun

[Seeker]

Collation of White Crane Ð Wing Chun
(Forensic Martial Arts)

There has been much discussion earlier on this forum regarding the nexus of White Crane and Wing Chun, with some persuasive arguments linking the two arts. Having trained a reasonable time in both systems, (but far from being an expert in either!), I would like to open up for discussion some specifics regarding principles and techniques. I would like to get othersÕ input on the collation of specific principles and hands/feet to see if, through forensic comparison of techniques and principles, we could further support the position of a shared heritage.

I will start by stating what are (in my humble view) the foundation principles and hands of each art. I would like those who have input to put it in!

Wing Chun Principles:
1. Grounding
2. Centerline
3. Relaxation
4. Forward Pressure
5. Economy of Motion

White Crane Principles:
1. Going to Fourth door
2. Breaking bridge
3. Use 4 ounces to move 1000
4. Touch and go
5. Making noise in the east/striking in the west

Basic Wing Chun Hands:
1. Straight punch
2. Bong Sao
3. Tan Sao
4. Gang Sao
5. Pok Sao

Basic White Crane Hands:
1. Fire hand
2. Water hand
3. Metal hand
4. Earth hand
5. Wood hand

Please note that these specifics are by no means comprehensive, and that I assign no level of priority to any of the principles or hands.

I have my own ideas on collating these things, but I would like to hear from some of our members their ideas.

Thanks

Chas

[pitbull]

this would lead to a promising study..im looking forward to that

[Seeker]

Ok, so i'll get the ball rolling on this:

What do you guys think about the White Crane Fire Hand being the source of Wing Chun's "ridge hand" (i don't know the chinese name for the hand - maybe Dui Sao or Fun Sao - anyone know this term?). This hand is seen in the Wing Chun curriculum in the second form Chum Kiu, but can also be seen in the 108 Wooden Dummy form.

While i'm at it, the White Crane Earth Hand can also be seen in Wing Chun's Chum Kiu just after the salutation. Anyone have comments? Should I post some images to demonstrate?

How about White Crane's Metal Hand correlating to Wing Chun's Fok Sao? I have not encounerted a Fok Sao as a striking hand, as in White Crane. In my experience, the Fok Sao is used as a controlling hand, but I don't see why it couldn't also be applied as the Metal Hand is as a strike.

[Kalista]

What's up with this thread ? It started beautifully.

[Seeker]

Hi Kalista,.

I'm kind of holding out for more people to jump into the pool on this one. In order for it to be a discussion, there needs to be more than just me, blabbing to myself! (There goes that crazy Seeker guy, talking to himself again

Got any comments, ideas, feedback? Anyone?

Chas

[Kalista]

Thanks for a quick reponse. I guess being spread out throughout several time zones can be a problem. Anyway this type of topic is interesting. But then I'm a bit of a "history nut".

Personally, it is becoming clear to me that White Crane is the mother of a lot of systems. Is it possible that Tai Ji (no offense to the Chen Clan) is also part of this parentage ? I've seen at least one "Wing Chun" system that seemed a lot "softer" than the Hong Kong "fast hands" set.

[Seeker]

Hi Kalista:

Are you saying that perhaps Tai Chi is part of the parentage or part of the offspring of White Crane? I haven't heard of White Crane as potential source of Tai Chi - my very limited knowledge is that Tai Chi pre-dates White Crane, but perhaps Ling would like to weigh in on this.

Which "soft hand" Wing Chun systems have you seen?

I have to say, that while my Wing Chun branch is directly from Yip Man, I have seen a keen attentiveness to energy and softness in my sifus and seniors. It is not something normally worked on until the advanced stages of training, and it is not as "soft" as tai chi, nor Fuzhou White Crane, but certainly softer than what is popularly seen in most commercial Wing Chun branches (Leung Ting, William Cheung, etc.).

Chas

[Kalista]

I would think Tai Ji would pre-date White Crane. As to the softer WC system it is from the mainland but they have schools in Europe- I want to say Mei Gei Wong but I'll need to confirm.

The system of Tai Ji that I have studied (at least the most) is Temple Tai Ji. Some have said that the systems master(at least the public one) ,Master Waysun Liao, has mixed Yang style with a White Crane system. Having actual experience with this system I think those who say that are wrong.

Nice talking to you.

[Firehawk]

I know of at least two versions of Wing Chun have forms of White Crane in there system Pa Fa Lien Wing Chun has some forms that come from Fukien White Crane and Yip kins Malaysian Wing Chun has some forms to these systems of Wing Chun seem tobe Wing Chun mixed with White Crane .

[Firehawk]

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Forms
Siu Nim Tao (Little Idea)
Chum Kiu (Seeking Bridge)
Biu Jee (Darting Fingers)
Tut Sao (Freeing Hand)
Doi Sao (Chopping Hand)
Bien Kuen (Whipping Fist)
Sup Jee (Cross Shaped)
Jin Kuen (Arrow Fist)
Jin Jeung (Arrow Palm)
Juk San (Side Body)
Noi Jong (Inside Dummy)
Ngoi Jong (Outside Dummy)
Gong Jong (Hard Dummy)
Yao Jong (Soft Dummy)
Gwun Jong (Pole Dummy)
Do Jong (Knife Dummy)
Juk Jong (Bamboo Dummy)
Luk Dim Boon Gwun (Six-and-a-Half Point Pole)
Mor thingy Seung Do (Millstone Double Knife)
Sup Sam Yay Yun Bin (Thirteen Section Whip)
Siu Lung Gim (Scholar Sword)
Da Ba (Fork)
Kwan Do (Kwan's Knife Yip Kin Wing Chun Forms
Siu Fa Kuen (Small Flower Fist)
Dai Fa Kuen (Big Flower Fist)
Fuk Fu Kuen (Subdue Tiger Fist)
Siu Ng Ying (Small Five Elements)
Tiet Pao Jarn (Iron Elbow)
Yeung Mui Bang (Pole)
Yum Yeung Ba Gwa Gwun (Yin Yang Eight Trigram Pole)
Muk Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy)
Luk Dim Boon Gwun (Six and a Half Point Pole)
Wu Dip Seung Dao (Double Butterfly Knives)
Mui Fa Cheung (Plum Blossom Spear)
Lao Yip Seung Dao (Willow Leaf Double Knives)
Fook Fu Dai Pa (Subdue Tiger Big Trident)
Chun Chow Dai Dao (Big Spring Autumn Knive

[Seeker]

Firehawk said:

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Forms
Siu Nim Tao (Little Idea)
Chum Kiu (Seeking Bridge)
Biu Jee (Darting Fingers)
Tut Sao (Freeing Hand)
Doi Sao (Chopping Hand)
Bien Kuen (Whipping Fist)
Sup Jee (Cross Shaped)
Jin Kuen (Arrow Fist)
Jin Jeung (Arrow Palm)
Juk San (Side Body)
Noi Jong (Inside Dummy)
Ngoi Jong (Outside Dummy)
Gong Jong (Hard Dummy)
Yao Jong (Soft Dummy)
Gwun Jong (Pole Dummy)
Do Jong (Knife Dummy)
Juk Jong (Bamboo Dummy)
Luk Dim Boon Gwun (Six-and-a-Half Point Pole)
Mor thingy Seung Do (Millstone Double Knife)
Sup Sam Yay Yun Bin (Thirteen Section Whip)
Siu Lung Gim (Scholar Sword)
Da Ba (Fork)
Kwan Do (Kwan's Knife Yip Kin Wing Chun Forms
Siu Fa Kuen (Small Flower Fist)
Dai Fa Kuen (Big Flower Fist)
Fuk Fu Kuen (Subdue Tiger Fist)
Siu Ng Ying (Small Five Elements)
Tiet Pao Jarn (Iron Elbow)
Yeung Mui Bang (Pole)
Yum Yeung Ba Gwa Gwun (Yin Yang Eight Trigram Pole)
Muk Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy)
Luk Dim Boon Gwun (Six and a Half Point Pole)
Wu Dip Seung Dao (Double Butterfly Knives)
Mui Fa Cheung (Plum Blossom Spear)
Lao Yip Seung Dao (Willow Leaf Double Knives)
Fook Fu Dai Pa (Subdue Tiger Big Trident)
Chun Chow Dai Dao (Big Spring Autumn Knive

Firehawk:

Thanks for your impressive list of Pao Fa Lien Forms. However, I would be very interested in getting real specifics in how these forms actually compare with White Crane. I am seeking more here than just a cut and pasted list of forms/hands from www.wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/paofalien.html to be exact).

Specifically, what principles or individual hands/techniques can we identify as sharing some sort of commonality?

Are these forms and hands with which you are familiar? Can you offer any insight into their cousins in White Crane? Probably more importantly, what are the relationships between the actual underlying principles of the systems?

I look forward to your ideas.

thanks
chas

[Eric Ling]

Firehawk said:

I know of at least two versions of Wing Chun have forms of White Crane in there system Pa Fa Lien Wing Chun has some forms that come from Fukien White Crane and Yip kins Malaysian Wing Chun has some forms to these systems of Wing Chun seem tobe Wing Chun mixed with White Crane .

Hi firehawk,

You must have noticed that we have this little ritual of attaching either pictures or video clips to exemplify what we are saying.

Any chance of us viewing some of the fascinating styles/systems you so avidly described?

You can use www.photobucket.com for attaching pictures. And for clips, you can send to Russ for storing in his library. Russ is okay, I will vouch for him.

I am holding my breath here. ;D ;D ;D

Thank you.

[Firehawk]

There are Pictures in this Leung Ting Book on Wing Chun that i have it shows Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Chi Sao sticking hands the book is filled with pictures of different kinds of wing chun i have a scanner but it is not working my brother did something to it how can i get these pictures on the website do you have to have a camera this is something i could never figure out but would like to learn .

[Firehawk]

I will ask my other brother about how to do these picture things he is a computer nut but he doesnt live in the same house as me so i will have to wait .