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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 22, 2004 10:47:06 GMT -5
History of Wing Chun by Yip Man (Translated) The founder of the Wing Chun style, Yim Wing-Chun was a native of Guangdong in China. She was an intelligent and athletic young girl, upstanding and forthright. Her mother died soon after her betrothal to Leung Bok-Cho, a salt merchant of Fujian. Her father, Yim Yee, was wrongfully accused of a crime and, rather than risk jail, they slipped away and finally settled down at the foot of Daliang Mountain near the border between Yunnan and Sichuan provinces. There they earned a living by running a shop that sold bean curd. During the reign of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty (1662-1722) fighting skills became very strong in the Shaolin Monastary of Songshan, in Henan Province. This aroused the fear of the Manchurian government, which sent troops to attack the Monastery. Although they were unsuccessful, a man named Chan Man-Wai, a recently appointed civil servant seeking favor with the government, suggested a plan. He plotted with Shaolin monk named Ma Ning-Yee and others who were persuaded to betray their companions by setting fire to the monastery while soldiers attacked it from the outside. Shaolin was burned down, and the monks and disciples scattered. Ng Mui, Jee Shim, Bak Mei, Fung Do-Dak and Miu Hin escaped and went their separate ways. Ng Mui took refuge in the White Crane Temple on Daliangshan. It was there she met Yim Yee and his daughter Wing-Chun from whom she often bought bean curd on her way home from the market. At fifteen, with her hair bound up in the custom of those days to show she was of an age to marry, Wing-Chun's beauty attracted the attention of a local bully. He tried to force Wing-Chun to marry him, and his continuous threats became a source of worry to her and her father. Ng Mui learned of this and took pity on Wing-Chun. She agreed to teach Wing-Chun fighting techniques so she could protect herself. Wing Chun followed Ng Mui into the mountains, and began to learn fighting skills. She trained night and day, until she mastered the techniques. Then she challenged the bully to a fight and beat him. Ng Mui later traveled around the country, but before she left she told Wing-Chun to strictly honor the martial arts traditions, to develop her fighting skills after her marriage, and to help the people working to overthrow the Manchu government and restore the Ming Dynasty. After her marriage Wing-Chun taught martial arts to her husband Leung Bok-Lao. He in turn passed these techniques on to Leung Lan-Kwai. Leung Lan-Kwai then passed them on to Wong Wah-Bo. Wong Wah-Bo was a member of an opera troupe on board a Red Junk. Wong worked on the Red Junk with Leung Yee-Tai. It so happened that Jee Shim, who fled from Shaolin, had disguised himself as a cook and was then working on the Red Junk. Jee Shim taught the Six-and-a-Half-Point Pole techniques to Leung Yee-Tai. Wong Wah-Bo was close to Leung Yee Tei and they shared what they knew about martial arts. Together they shared and improved their techniques, and thus the Six-and-a-Half-Point Pole was incorporated into the Wing Chun style. Leung Yee-Tai passed his knolwledge on to Leung Jan, a well known doctor in Foshan. Leung Jan grasped the innermost secrets of Wing Chun, attaining the highest level of proficiency. Many masters came to challenge him, but all were defeated. Leung Jan became very famous. Later he passed his knowledge on to Chan Wah-Shan who took me and my sihing, such as Ng Siu-Lo, Ng Jung-So, Chan Yu-Min and Lui Yiu-Chai, as his students many decades ago. It can thus be said that the Wing Chun system was passed on to us in a direct line of succession from its origin. I write this history of the Wing Chun system in respectful memory of my forerunners. I am eternally grateful to them for passing to me the skills I now possess. When drinking of the the water, a man should always think of the source; it is this shared feeling that keeps our brothers together. Is this not the way to promote martial arts, and to project the image of our country?
Ps Ng Mui (Cantonese) or Ngo Mei (Fukien) is listed as a 5th generation student of Fang Chi Niang White Crane.
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Post by Seeker on Sept 22, 2004 22:36:42 GMT -5
This is the history of Wing Chun that has been passed to me -- does anyone else out there have a significantly different story?
I find it curious that both Wing Chun and White Crane trace their roots to a female founder -- coincidence?
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Post by Suhana LIM on Sept 28, 2004 6:50:02 GMT -5
Seeker ni hao I don't know about Wing Chun. But what is the real version of it's history. Just curious, because there are so many Wing Chun bukoans here. Each with their version of "history", and claimed theirs are the "authentic" one. Cheers.
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Post by Seeker on Sept 28, 2004 12:09:48 GMT -5
Suhana:
I believe that the "true" history of Wing Chun lies in fragments of many of the current stories out there, all of which I believe to have been embellished to the point of mythos by all the Wing Chun pai.
I would not presume to present my version of Wing Chun history as the "true" history, but my very personal opinion, based only on my short exposure to both Wing Chun and to (Fu Zhou) White Crane, is that Wing Chun is a direct descendent of White Crane. I posit that Ng Moi, or perhaps Leung Bok Cho, decided to streamline their Crane system into one that was more "scientific" in its approach, and could be taught faster.
In my experience, Wing Chun is notable in that it avoids metaphorical language to define principles/techniques. Most of the Chinese systems i have seen are extremely layered -- the essence of a principle or technique can be hidden to the practitioner for years, with clues found in the description of the act. Wing Chun is much more direct and "to the point."
I think its telling (in fact, it is obvious!) that both the Wing Chun and the White Crane systems have a mythos of a woman who observes a crane and fashions a fighting system based on those movements. The evidence can be found in comparing Wing Chun and White Crane hands -- we could go on forever about the comparisons. In short, i view Wing Chun as a long lost White Crane child put up for adoption by its Crane parents, but who has retained those genetic traits we find so endearing and effective(!).
So, thats my humble opinion.
Seeker
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Post by Seeker on Sept 28, 2004 12:17:33 GMT -5
Also:
As noted by Yip Man's version of Wing Chun history, Ng Moi took refuge in a White Crane Temple. This is open acknowledgement of the Crane influence.
Mr. Ling also points out that Ng Moi is listed as a 5th generation student of Fang Chi Niang White Crane (I'm curious - what is the source of this info?).
The story of Ng Moi having observed a crane fighting a snake is another recurring element of Wing Chun legend, even in the Yip Man branches.
Are there any non-Yip Man branches out there who have some other insight?
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 28, 2004 23:53:38 GMT -5
Hi Chas,
I think you are on the right path.
Wing Chun being the more "scientific" offspring of White Crane speculation is not novel in the circle I move in. We are talking about a fraternity of both White Crane and Wing Chun authorities.
But I think it is still doable to collate in terms of techniques and principles.
This I hope is where we are headed – should be a stimulating experience.
Thanks.
Oh yes, the Ng Moi thingy - the name is on a White Crane family chart used by White Crane folks all over Asia.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Sept 29, 2004 0:39:34 GMT -5
Chas and Eric ni me hao Thank you for your vast knowledge of Wing Chun. I can see the relation of White Crane and Wing Chun clearer. Cheers.
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sihing
New Member
Wing Chun Instructor-training since 1988
Posts: 16
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Post by sihing on Jan 19, 2005 0:45:42 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new to this forum and found it from the KFO forum.
My interpretation of Wing Chun's history is that it is the by-product of intense discussions by the Grandmaster's (Elder's) of the Shaolin Temple, the same 5 mentioned in the lead post of this thread. The purpose of these discussions was two fold, first to develop a fighting art that would be easier and faster to learn and second a MA more effective than what was available at that time. The five Masters revealed all their secrets and developed new fighting strategies and concepts/principals. Things like short range fighting, using two arms at the same time, center/central line theory, using contact reflexes as a tool to interpret the opponents movements faster, short range power striking, elbow/knee controlling, blindside theory of positioning, etc...Before the actual development of the techniques of this new MA, the government burnt down the temple. Some of the Elder's escaped, with one of them being the nun Ng Mui. She then took the information developed through the meetings with the other Elders and developed the actual techniques that encompass the Wing Chun system. She passed it down to Yim Wing Chun, who passed it down to her husband and the rest is similar to the 1st post of this thread.
I also believe that each lineage holder enhanced and improved upon what they learned from the previous generation, therefore IMO the Wing Chun Art has evolved from the very beginning.
IMO the Wing Chun system is the most scientific form of combat available today and also the most effective, which does not mean that each and everyone that studies it will be deadly fighters, but when one does learn it and practice it consistently with proper instruction, they will be the most effective they can be when it comes to self defense and not fighting.
James
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 19, 2005 1:20:16 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new to this forum and found it from the KFO forum. IMO the Wing Chun system is the most scientific form of combat available today and also the most effective, which does not mean that each and everyone that studies it will be deadly fighters, but when one does learn it and practice it consistently with proper instruction, they will be the most effective they can be when it comes to self defense and not fighting. James Hello James, To say that Wing Chun is the most “scientific” is something that I would concur. To say that it is the most “effective” to me is a little “broad”. I’ve met and played with high hands from many styles. My 39 years kung Fu journey has brought me into contact with many different systems of fighting. Some of which have yet to be exported to the Western world. Touching hands with these folks were “frightening” experiences. But then again, I never subscribe to the concept of superior styles, only superior players.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 19, 2005 1:34:22 GMT -5
hi James, Just wondering, how much of Yong Chun White Crane have you seen? Have you been to www.fujianbaihe.com ? Thanks.
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sihing
New Member
Wing Chun Instructor-training since 1988
Posts: 16
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Post by sihing on Jan 19, 2005 1:50:05 GMT -5
Hello James, To say that Wing Chun is the most “scientific” is something that I would concur. To say that it is the most “effective” to me is a little “broad”. I’ve met and played with high hands from many styles. My 39 years kung Fu journey has brought me into contact with many different systems of fighting. Some of which have yet to be exported to the Western world. Touching hands with these folks were “frightening” experiences. But then again, I never subscribe to the concept of superior styles, only superior players. It's true that in any form of MA it is ultimately up to the practitioner to be able to perform the movements when they need it the most. For those that have a keen interest toward their studies, they will obviously aquire more skill. For those that are not as interested in it the skill will be lower for sure. Basically, that's what it comes down to IMO. But if you take a "fighters fighter" and make two of them, genetically the same in every way, and one learns this or that style of MA and the other learns Wing Chun(at least the method I learn/teach, as IMO not all Wing Chun is equal or the same), both train intensely and hard until they learn everything to learn, IMO the Wing Chun man will win. The effectiveness of the concepts, principals and techniques make it very hard to beat, never mind training hard physically to increase the attributes of speed, strength, stamina, etc.. My Sifu always said that you can train as hard as you want, break all the brick/boards, kick a hunderd MPH, punch 20 times in a second but if you have nothing upstairs then you have nothing at all. The Brain is the ultimate weapon, and Wing Chun uses it more than most all the MA out there today. It transends limitations of the individual practitioner, because the technique's are effective in their own right. I tend to believe him as he is a "fighters fighter" having had to use his skills quite often. He went through the years and years of training 10-14 hours a day, in the Hung Gar, Woo Dip Kung-Fu systems primarily. He dropped all of it when he learned and refined the proper Wing Chun system, to which he exlusively teaches today. James
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 19, 2005 2:14:05 GMT -5
Good to know that you are such a big advocate of Wing Chun.
Tell me, what is a "fighters fighter"?
I am not familiar with that term.
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sihing
New Member
Wing Chun Instructor-training since 1988
Posts: 16
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Post by sihing on Jan 19, 2005 12:25:13 GMT -5
"Fighters fighter" is someone that likes to fight, trains hard to fight and has natural abilities/skills to fight (Bruce Lee was a "Fighters fighter), in other words not me for sure. I don't like fighting, but I do have quality abilities to defend myself in necessary and I've gotten more out of WC training than fighting skills.
Yes, I am whole heartedly behind the WC system but this is after years of research and investigation into other systems of MA, not just a tunnel vision of someone that has never seen anything else.
James
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 19, 2005 23:14:54 GMT -5
"Fighters fighter" is someone that likes to fight, trains hard to fight and has natural abilities/skills to fight (Bruce Lee was a "Fighters fighter), in other words not me for sure. I don't like fighting, but I do have quality abilities to defend myself in necessary and I've gotten more out of WC training than fighting skills. Yes, I am whole heartedly behind the WC system but this is after years of research and investigation into other systems of MA, not just a tunnel vision of someone that has never seen anything else. James Hi James, Couple of things to get off my chest. Please do not misunderstand as everything I say is given in the spirit of positive MA exchanges and sharing. After all, if you are brought up in the traditional Chinese Kung Fu ways, you must realize that all Wu Lin is one family, regardless of creeds. • I have absolutely nothing against Wing Chun period. In fact when I taught in Colorado, I was sharing studio space with an outstanding Wing Chun school. This school is a proud demonstration of Sifu Duncan Leong/GM Yip Man line in that part of USA. Sifu Bart Mann and Phil Switzer are 2 of the nicest folks I have met. Fantastic Wing Chun players but yet humble in every sense of the word. Together they produced some really excellent Wing Chun players. In a nutshell, a traditional no nonsense hardcore Wing Chun school. • In your words, you have researched many styles and avoided tunnel vision by picking Wing Chun. May I humbly ask, out of the 600 different styles of traditional Chinese Kung Fu, how many have you experienced? Or to narrow it down, how many of the 100 over styles of Fatshan/Canton styles are you personally acquainted with? I don’t do Wing Chun per se. But I did cross hands with many Wing Chun players in my time. And I must comment that they are efficient in what they do. I would say the same for the many other styles that I have encountered. In fact, in my experience, the toughest must be a Muay Thai boxer I met from the Royal Thai Police Force. It was sheer luck that I lasted 3 rounds with that gentlemen without getting myself knocked out. And he is not even a pro-fighter. Just a Thai police officer with Muay Thai training. And it is any wonder that since that meeting, my own training included many aspects of Muay Thai? James, no one is challenging the efficiency of Wing Chun. But to keep coming to this forum and insist that Wing Chun is the “best” is a little improper IMHO. I remember reading one of Bruce Lee’s books where he said that at one point he discovered that Wing Chun has many “shortcomings”. I think it was after fighting a Karate player. That spurred him into exploring and incorporating many other styles into his training. Or did I read wrong?
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sihing
New Member
Wing Chun Instructor-training since 1988
Posts: 16
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Post by sihing on Jan 20, 2005 0:46:50 GMT -5
Eric,
Its not about being "Best" as I don't really believe in that word. Who is the best fighter today? No one in particular, but there are many included in that group, some famous and some not.
My basic philosophy about Martial things is to respect each and every Art and practitioner, because anyone that has any quality skill in any MA will be effective and dangerous, and not easily overcome. But, IMO, when it comes down to the analysis of things I believe that WC is a slight step above the rest. There are other MA that I have experienced and investigated that comes real close but not quite there, but this is the nitpicking of my personality.
As for your questions of my exposure to the 600+ styles of Kung Fu out there, I have only personal experience with maybe max. 10 of them, meaning I have either met someone and touched hands with them, sparring or have had discussions and comparisons of technique. The last thing I do when meeting anyone from any style/system is to be confrontational and aggressive. I do not challenge them on what they believe about their system, because if I did that would mean they were a threat to me, to which means that I was somehow frightened by what they were talking about or demonstrating. When one becomes frightened that means something is wrong upstairs in the relem of confidence. I always try to be open minded about things but I do, as we humans do, have opinions. For example, Dan Inosanto is a very well respected MA and trainer/teacher/practitioner/fighter, and I have read tons of his stuff and viewed videos and all kinds of things, but I do not agree with everything he says or does, same with Bruce Lee and he was a step above Inosanto, same with Paul Vunak, or Emin Boztepe or William Cheung and a host of other famous Martial Artist. It's a fact that no matter who you are, not everyone is going to agree with everything you say or believe, and that's okay. This is not arogance or a belief in myself being superior in any way, but just as a Human Being we develop opinions and judgements about things based on our experience. For example again, the story of Bruce Lee finding limitations in Wing Chun when he had a fight with Wong Jak Man. Bruce only learned half the system and not even the real/original system to boot (I won't get into that story of real/original Wing chun in this thread), plus anyone would be tired after having to chase someone around a room punching them in the back of the head. If his opponent started to run away once the fight started then obviously the person wasn't serious about fighting Bruce, so then why chase him? I wouldn't, when they want to fight they will come in for it and that's when to use the Wing Chun. Many interpretations of the same story.
Take care Eric and please don't believe that I'm trying to cause trouble or anything negative to this forum.
James
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