Double hip???

[tesshin1]

No offense but to refer to him as "DON" is kinda disrespectful don't you think. I believe he is known as the father of your style in Canada. And I never said I was training in Isshinryu. I said I was training under him. Do you doubt his authenticity and knowledge?

[olddragon]

Since you dont know me, or my relationship with Mr. Shapland i beleive it is a little presumptious to say calling him Don is disrespectful. Asking me if I doubt his authenticity and knowledge is not a question to be asked on this forum. and I beleive that you stated or someone stated they were studying Isshin Ryu and a connection to him teaching was refered to.

Mike O'Leary.

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

Hi Mike,Robby and Nick were with Sue when she borrowed your bos.They must have waited in her car.We have a small kobudo group in Ocala Fl.We also train in Isshinryu under Donald Shapland and Bill Steigner.Mr. Steigner also helps with a little Goju ryu.Our group also trains with Dan Smith in Shorin ryu.About chudan zuki,at first Tamayose sensei allowed us to move our feet but we found that was a fast way to get some serious blisters when training on the beach with him.At an advanced level he will not allow you to shift your feet.In kihon 2 you start in natural stance(seishin dachi)then step out to shiko dachi(square stance)once in shiko dach the stance does not change,no zenkutsu dachi in kihon 2.I think the hip positions you refer to must be as the hip is initialy loaded then fired forward and finally returned to the start position.In all these positions the feet stay in shiko dachi.In the kihon the hip can be broken down like this but in actual use or kata the return to start position is the load for the next technique.That load being done between techniques and the thrust forward being done during the technique does not allow for a "double hip"count.During tsuri ashi is also an example of when the hip can be loaded between techniques.Shapland sensei should be down to visit us in a couple of weeks I am sure he will correct us on these issues when he gets here.I have found that the more often I am wrong the more often I get correction.And I seem to get a lot of correction. Tom Hodges

This is where it was stated Tesshin1 was training under Shapland Sensei in Isshin Ryu, since nobody signs there names here on a standard basis I may be mistaken but I understood Tesshin 1 was Robby.

[Eric Ling]

Gentlemen,

Now that we have all spilled some wine on the table, can we pick up our glasses and toast each other.

Believe me; every style of MA is good when done conscientiously.

My truth cannot be your truth. This forum is for all of us to share and to avoid unnecessary experimentations and mistakes.

No one is better or superior to the next.

We are at different points in the journey that’s all.

Cheers, gentlemen!

[tesshin1]

No problems here Eric. That's the problem with these posts. Sometimes they sound worse than they are. I apologize to Mike. I didn't mean for that to sound the way it did. Let the journey continue.
Robby

[olddragon]

No offence taken Robby.

Mike O'Leary

[Eric Ling]

Thank you both.

Don’t know your teachers but my respect to them. They taught well.

Demonstrated in your manners.

Thank you again.

[olddragon]

tesshin1 said:

No problems here Eric. That's the problem with these posts. Sometimes they sound worse than they are. I apologize to Mike. I didn't mean for that to sound the way it did. Let the journey continue.
Robby

Robby:

I should apologize because It was not proper of me to refer to Sensei Shapland on this forum as Don. I do address him as that on the street and in private when we meet or talk. It was a slip on my part.

As to my reaction to your question about his credibility.... to much of that goes on in some of these forums and to me our dicussion was not about who was right or wrong it was a dicussion on a technique that we both practice. The dicussion simply got a little side tracked.

Mike O'Leary

[MightBHooked]

harleyt26 said:

The Katsuyuki Shimabukuro you spoke of,would you know if there is any connection to Zenpo(Seibukan) or Tatsuo(Isshinryu)?

Hi Tom,

I don't think so, K. Shimabukuro's original Sensei was Choshin Chibana. Shimabukuro is also one of the two vice chairman of the Okinawa Shorinryu Karatedo Kyokai (Katsuya Miyahira is the chairman).

One of my Isshinryu sensei is Donald Shapland who is also my kobudo instructor,so the hip motion is very pronounced with him but my other Isshinryu instructor is Bill Steigner who trains in Matayoshi weapons and is one that refers to it as double hip and does not use the same hip motion.That makes it a little confusing at times but very interesting to see the differences. Tom Hodges

That's why I think 'hip motion' is better to use. Like someone else said earlier, I think, the translation of Japanese words to an English meaning gets lost in the translation.


With all of you guys from the Ocala area, I'd wish I had known that back in March 2004, when I was there. I have family in the town of Hernando and Beverly Hills.

That area is getting very populated; the secret is out. ;D

The only problem is, you need more Dunkin Dounuts. I had to drive 30 minutes to the one in Ocala on 200; that's how bad I needed their coffee.

Regards,
Larry

[harleyt26]

Hi Larry,next time you are in the area just give me a call.I would enjoy some extra curricular training.My parents live in Hommassasa which is on the other side of Beverly Hills so I travel through that town fairly often.Beverly Hills has a nice little tavern called Haywires that serves some very good hot wings and beer.I will private message you my phone number.I agree that "hip motion is much more accurate.My initial point was that the term "double hip"is very missleading and could be causing some confusion in turn making it more difficult to learn.Yes I guess we probably do have a shortage of Dunkin Donuts here but that is OK with me I am constantly struggling with weight gain,may have something to do with hot wings and beer. ;D Tom

[MightBHooked]

Hi Tom,

Thanks, I would enjoy that too. I look forward to it, the next time I'm down.

Hommasassa is nice, I've been to the wildlife park there.

[qayak]

Eric said:

But increasingly, your “chinkuichi” begin to sound like what we call “chaat luk” in Fukien dialect.

In a nutshell, this is the sudden “locking” of joints to generate high power in the execution of techniques. “Chaat” means “joints” in Fukien.

And it is this “locking” that is sometimes mistaken as “shortening” by some karate-ka when viewing traditional CKF forms. I got a very close friend who is a instructor in “Kei Shin Kan” karate. He is always commenting that I am punching “short” when I do my Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) kung fu. Kei Shin Kan is exactly like Shoto-kan.

Hi Eric,

I too have just joined this discussion after Mike sent me the link. Actually, he was supposed to send it to me but only sent it to a mutual friend who was kind enough to pass it on. ;D

Chinkuchi means Sinew (muscle), bone, control so I think we are talking about exactly the same thing. Shotokan refers to it as kime although many schools do not subscribe to its use.

Ian Johnston

[qayak]

I am a little late into this discussion but here is my two cents on gamaku.

Gamaku is often referred to as hip rotation and I think this is not quite right. In Isshinryu we train gamaku using naihanchi kata (chinkuchi is trained with sanchin) and there is no hip rotation in naihanchi. The rotation is above, in the waist. This is an important part especially when striking because by rotating the waist our hips stay open in relation to our opponent and our reach is greatly extended.

Using this technique, we can out reach our opponent while they are in a front stance. The surprising thing about this is that I can have him directly to the side, let's say the right, and not only will I out reach him with my right (lead) hand but I will also be able to punch him with my left without him being able to hit me. If I allow my hip to rotate it will close off and reduce my reach.

Just another thought to throw into the mix.

Ian

[CStephens]

Just figured I'd throw out a beautiful calligraphy of Chinkuchi which I found in Jeff Perkin's Chinkuchi: The Biggest Little Thing in Isshinryu article.

[qayak]

CStephens said:

Just figured I'd throw out a beautiful calligraphy of Chinkuchi which I found in Jeff Perkin's Chinkuchi: The Biggest Little Thing in Isshinryu article.

This was written by Kensho Tokamura. It is his definition of chinkuchi. Destructive power is a very good way to express the idea.