Double hip???

[olddragon]

he can probably explain better the context of the question and the answer than I can.

Mike O'Leary

[harleyt26]

I may have missunderstood Dan Smith but he told me that chinkuchi is a word that means when everything comes together.As in when the stance and strike and possibly the hip motion all come together to make a good technique.I am sure you have felt that feeling when you just know that it was right,Kyoshi Smith said that feeling is chinkuchi.So I beleive chinkuchi could apply to the hip motion but not necessarily.I was told that the okinawan dialect actually has no word for the hip motion so they use words that refer to the general area.I hope Steigner sensei will join us on this subject he has some very interesting stories and is familiar with this very debateable subject.I would also like to hear some more on this "lock" that Mr. OLeary refers to.I am familiar with locking into a stance but I have not heard it in reference to the hip motion. Tom Hodges

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

I may have missunderstood Dan Smith but he told me that chinkuchi is a word that means when everything comes together.As in when the stance and strike and possibly the hip motion all come together to make a good technique.I am sure you have felt that feeling when you just know that it was right,Kyoshi Smith said that feeling is chinkuchi.So I beleive chinkuchi could apply to the hip motion but not necessarily.I was told that the okinawan dialect actually has no word for the hip motion so they use words that refer to the general area.I hope Steigner sensei will join us on this subject he has some very interesting stories and is familiar with this very debateable subject.I would also like to hear some more on this "lock" that Mr. OLeary refers to.I am familiar with locking into a stance but I have not heard it in reference to the hip motion. Tom Hodges

Chinkuchi is the culmination of proper breathing, timing and body mechanics. Many Japanese styles may refer to it as Kime. Chinkuchi happens at the end of the technique and is meant to be focused in a particular area of the body, ie. at the end of the fist or for example in testing of Sanchin brought to the area of the test when strikes are performed hard.

The lock I refer to is in the case of a punch similar to "locking" the hip at the end of the punch creating chinkuchi. It is similar to a pelvic tilt action with tension. It is the split second of tension that is part of the focus of power to a specific point.

I'm realizing here that writing it is not as easy as I thought. Locking the hip adds the entire body behind the punch and without the lock it is only the arm involved if that makes sense.

I dont know about other styles but in both the Okinawan Kobudo and Okinawan karate I have studied they talk of focus, chinkuichi, or Kime. Break down this example slowly and breath out at the point of contact.

Take a basic stance and perform a basic block and reverse punch. As you perform the block to its maximum lthe hip should slightly rotate and at the culmination of the move lock to maximize. Release the hip and counter punch at the end of the punch at the moment of maximum potential lock again, Each time you should be exhaling. This is Sanchin and sanchin is "Extended Chinquichi" In sanchin the tension and lock is emphasized to teach one how to do it. In real live it is obviously faster and momentary but still there none the less.

Mike O'Leary

[tesshin1]

Hi mike, the only prob with locking the hip is you cannot be reloading for the next tech. I tend to think of it as water sloshing in a glass. When the water is at its highest peak on the edge of the glass, the glass itself is rocked to the other side. This way the hip is load again to start the next motion. I could be misunderstanding you because it is a very hard concept and even harder to try and describe in words. Chinkuchi as explained by Smith Sensei, and Shapland Sensei, both extreme sources of knowledge say that it is when everything comes together and is in alignment at the moment of impact. Perfect tech. Which for obvious reasons cannot be done everytime. Just happens everyonce in a while and puts a serious smile on you face.
Sincerely Robby

[olddragon]

Locking:

take a left foot forward stance, slowly execute a right hand reverse punch, as you meet resistance push harder, feel your butt tighten and eventually lock (perhaps lock is the wrong word) but the muscle will tighten in the legs, butt and abcomen to push... dont worry about reload because its only momentary.

Shapland taught me this, I was his student for several years and he promoted me as far as Nidan. But 20 years ago he did not use the term chinkuichi. Ryu Kyu Kobudo teaches this, Sanchin teaches this. termonology can sometimes get in the way and I personally refer to it as a lock but it is the Sanchin tension I am refering to. It is a split second hardening of the muscles involved creating the most power.

Now perform the same example with out tightening the hip or other muscles and tell me which develops the most power. Water in a glass will simply splash off the target object, contracting the muscles will allow penetration. Advincula taught me this. Combine the two teachings and we have effective power. Both were teaching the same thing using different terminology and different references. Push against the wall by your self, if you dont "lock" the hip you cant push. You will actually push yourself away from the wall rather than go through the wall. In Tesshin kan you lock the stance when using the bo. Tamayose is very insistent that when you make the final move of Chudanski you sink slightly thereby solidifying the low horse stance and in my terms "Locking" the hip. Weather we refer to it as a lock or not is irrelavant..... but we solidify the stance.


Mike O'leary

[Eric Ling]

olddragon said:

Locking:

take a left foot forward stance, slowly execute a right hand reverse punch, as you meet resistance push harder, feel your butt tighten and eventually lock (perhaps lock is the wrong word) but the muscle will tighten in the legs, butt and abcomen to push... dont worry about reload because its only momentary.

Shapland taught me this, I was his student for several years and he promoted me as far as Nidan. But 20 years ago he did not use the term chinkuichi. Ryu Kyu Kobudo teaches this, Sanchin teaches this. termonology can sometimes get in the way and I personally refer to it as a lock but it is the Sanchin tension I am refering to. It is a split second hardening of the muscles involved creating the most power.

Now perform the same example with out tightening the hip or other muscles and tell me which develops the most power. Water in a glass will simply splash off the target object, contracting the muscles will allow penetration. Advincula taught me this. Combine the two teachings and we have effective power. Both were teaching the same thing using different terminology and different references. Push against the wall by your self, if you dont "lock" the hip you cant push. You will actually push yourself away from the wall rather than go through the wall. In Tesshin kan you lock the stance when using the bo. Tamayose is very insistent that when you make the final move of Chudanski you sink slightly thereby solidifying the low horse stance and in my terms "Locking" the hip. Weather we refer to it as a lock or not is irrelavant..... but we solidify the stance.


Mike O'leary

Hi Mike,

I have been following you guys on this one and decided to keep out because I am not too acquainted with Karate terminologies and concepts.

But increasingly, your “chinkuichi” begin to sound like what we call “chaat luk” in Fukien dialect.

In a nutshell, this is the sudden “locking” of joints to generate high power in the execution of techniques. “Chaat” means “joints” in Fukien.

And it is this “locking” that is sometimes mistaken as “shortening” by some karate-ka when viewing traditional CKF forms. I got a very close friend who is a instructor in “Kei Shin Kan” karate. He is always commenting that I am punching “short” when I do my Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) kung fu. Kei Shin Kan is exactly like Shoto-kan.

Thanks.

[olddragon]

Eric said:

Hi Mike,

I have been following you guys on this one and decided to keep out because I am not too acquainted with Karate terminologies and concepts.

But increasingly, your “chinkuichi” begin to sound like what we call “chaat luk” in Fukien dialect.

In a nutshell, this is the sudden “locking” of joints to generate high power in the execution of techniques. “Chaat” means “joints” in Fukien.

And it is this “locking” that is sometimes mistaken as “shortening” by some karate-ka when viewing traditional CKF forms. I got a very close friend who is a instructor in “Kei Shin Kan” karate. He is always commenting that I am punching “short” when I do my Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) kung fu. Kei Shin Kan is exactly like Shoto-kan.

Thanks.

Eric: Isshin Ryu Punches are constantly being reffered to as "short" it sounds like very similar applications. One of the big problems as you may be aware is explaining things like this without the opportunity to "see" it happen. Isshin Ryu (in my opinion) is by its nature a close in fighting style because of things such as this. I have seen that short little Isshin Ryu Punch not given points in tournament by the judge and in frustration the Isshin Ryu practioner "put one home" to the solar plexus of his opponent. The opponent did not fall back, he simply dropped.

Weather we refer to tightening of the joints, or muscles, or locking the hip, were all refering to the same thing. How in a split second moment to we maximize our power in our strike or block. As in Kobudo as I stated in the last post we must "settle" the stance. No strike or block is effective without the stance. We may transition from one to another But I have yet to train in a style that didnt insist that the final strike is to be executed from a good solid stance that produces good balance and in turn good power.


Thanks Eric.

Mike O'Leary

[tesshin1]

I agree with the lowering in the stance. Like in Naifanchi, same principle. THis is giving you the strong base to deliver the tech. THis is just me but I also feel that there is a difference in delivering what tech you are using. Example, you have trained in Tesshinkan so you are aware of the mechanical diff of Bo kihone 5. THis is the turning of the hip and "locking" action that you are referring to I believe. BUt kihone 2 or just chudan tsuki is delivered totally different. THe balls of the feet stay planted and Tamayose sensei himself told me not to pivot my feet. They should stay planted in the "shiko" dachi. THey should not move at all. So if they cannot move only the hips can move now creating the water in the glass effect. Kihone 5 is for pushing against the concrete wall I think. Kinone 2 is for penetration. So I think it depends on what tech you are trying to do. THis is really good chit chat and its refreshing to hear comments and different views from another that has practiced the same action.
Happy new year
robby

[olddragon]

tamayose told me to slightly drop in chudan Tsuki so that the stance becomes the immovable object just before the moment of impact. Of course this is the broken down slow motion version. At full speed they appear to be simultaneous.

Mike O'Leary

[olddragon]

tesshin1 said:

I agree with the lowering in the stance. Like in Naifanchi, same principle. THis is giving you the strong base to deliver the tech. THis is just me but I also feel that there is a difference in delivering what tech you are using.
robby

Robby, do you train Isshin Ryu ? and if so under whom?
Where are you located?
Mike O'Leary

[olddragon]

BUt kihone 2 or just chudan tsuki is delivered totally different. THe balls of the feet stay planted and Tamayose sensei himself told me not to pivot my feet. They should stay planted in the "shiko" dachi. THey should not move at all. So if they cannot move only the hips can move now creating the water in the glass effect.
robby[/quote]



I have been thinking about this.......

Now was he talking about through the entire 3 positions of the hip during this technique???

The last time I went through this move specificly with Tamayose sensei it went in 3 stages,
1. shift the direction of the feet to the rear in a Zen Kutsu dachi stance
2. Shift by rotating the feet to the front in zen kutsu dachi
3. rotate the rear foot and settle into shiko dachi and it is this point where he emphasized to me to "lower" it slightly to ensure it was solid.

Are you saying now that he has told you not to move your feet?

Mike O'Leary

[harleyt26]

Hi Mike,Robby and Nick were with Sue when she borrowed your bos.They must have waited in her car.We have a small kobudo group in Ocala Fl.We also train in Isshinryu under Donald Shapland and Bill Steigner.Mr. Steigner also helps with a little Goju ryu.Our group also trains with Dan Smith in Shorin ryu.About chudan zuki,at first Tamayose sensei allowed us to move our feet but we found that was a fast way to get some serious blisters when training on the beach with him.At an advanced level he will not allow you to shift your feet.In kihon 2 you start in natural stance(seishin dachi)then step out to shiko dachi(square stance)once in shiko dach the stance does not change,no zenkutsu dachi in kihon 2.I think the hip positions you refer to must be as the hip is initialy loaded then fired forward and finally returned to the start position.In all these positions the feet stay in shiko dachi.In the kihon the hip can be broken down like this but in actual use or kata the return to start position is the load for the next technique.That load being done between techniques and the thrust forward being done during the technique does not allow for a "double hip"count.During tsuri ashi is also an example of when the hip can be loaded between techniques.Shapland sensei should be down to visit us in a couple of weeks I am sure he will correct us on these issues when he gets here.I have found that the more often I am wrong the more often I get correction.And I seem to get a lot of correction. Tom Hodges

[tesshin1]

Hey Mike, I agree with TOm. WHen Sensei is trying to get you to understand the basic motion he will teach it in a way that will get the person to start doing the motion and developing a feel for it because it is such an incredibly hard technique to do to begin with. Then after a while he will change it to how he wants it done. This is because he is not able to train with anyone outside of Kochinda on a regular basis so he does not have time to keep a watchful eye on the progress of students outside of Okinawa. I think this is why there are so many differing opions on the hip issue. Tamayose Sensei was here three months ago. When he was here the year before he corrected us too, but I guess we were still moving our feet a little too much. He phoned Shapland Sensei, becuase we train with him on a regular basis and told him to get our feet to stop moving. Why don't you ever train with Shapland sensei in ryu kyu kobudo? He is right there by you and did live on Okinawa and train with Tamayose Sensei daily for 8 years or so. The way you are describing the hip motion is very similar to how Zempo SHimabukuru teaches the Seibukan Shorin ryu system.

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

Hi Mike,Robby and Nick were with Sue when she borrowed your bos.They must have waited in her car.We have a small kobudo group in Ocala Fl.We also train in Isshinryu under Donald Shapland and Bill Steigner.Mr. Steigner also helps with a little Goju ryu.Our group also trains with Dan Smith in Shorin ryu.About chudan zuki,at first Tamayose sensei allowed us to move our feet but we found that was a fast way to get some serious blisters when training on the beach with him.At an advanced level he will not allow you to shift your feet.In kihon 2 you start in natural stance(seishin dachi)then step out to shiko dachi(square stance)once in shiko dach the stance does not change,no zenkutsu dachi in kihon 2.I think the hip positions you refer to must be as the hip is initialy loaded then fired forward and finally returned to the start position.In all these positions the feet stay in shiko dachi.In the kihon the hip can be broken down like this but in actual use or kata the return to start position is the load for the next technique.That load being done between techniques and the thrust forward being done during the technique does not allow for a "double hip"count.During tsuri ashi is also an example of when the hip can be loaded between techniques.Shapland sensei should be down to visit us in a couple of weeks I am sure he will correct us on these issues when he gets here.I have found that the more often I am wrong the more often I get correction.And I seem to get a lot of correction. Tom Hodges

If you remember I was talking about a slow motion break down...... I am well aware of the "reality" of it all.

Mike O'Leary.

[olddragon]

Why don't you ever train with Shapland sensei in ryu kyu kobudo? He is right there by you and did live on Okinawa and train with Tamayose Sensei daily for 8 years or so. The way you are describing the hip motion is very similar to how Zempo SHimabukuru teaches the Seibukan Shorin ryu system.

[/quote]


Don by his own admission is not teaching Isshin Ryu anymore. so I dont know how you can be training in IR under him? ? ? ? ? ?

As to why I dont train with him in Ryu Kyu Kobudo, well, timing is everything, also, he doesnt have a dojo.

Mike O'Leary