Double hip???

[harleyt26]

I study Ryu Kyu Kobudo,Taira,Akamine lineage.I understand through my sensei that Taira sent Akamine to study with Higa sensei to learn his hip motion,because Taira wanted it in his kobudo system.This is the only kobudo system that I study,so I do not have much to compare it to.I do train in some shorin ryu,goju ryu and isshin ryu.I have not found Higa senseis style that utilized the hip motion.My question is,why do so many refer to it as a "double"hip.I can see how it might appear to be if broken down and done very slowly but when performed correctly the hip is already reloading as the impact of the previous technique is landing.I guess what I am trying to get across is that it cannot be a "double" hip if the hip motion is shared by more than one technique.In our kobudo system the hip motion(gamanku or koshi)is a means of intensifying the power delivered to a technique.By training students to use this hip motion I have found that it takes on the average about two years to start progressing your hip motion and another year or two to become realy comfortable with it.The problem is that the people that I have found that do not understand this motion and label it "double" hip have not put a sufficient amount of training time to actually become comfortable with it.Once it becomes yours you will not beleive the power that can be developed by it. Tom Hodges

[MightBHooked]

Hi Tom,

The “double hip” phrase is just a term that a lot use to describe it. Whether you call it vibrating, quivering, or shaking hip movement, or whatever else, no one can deny the power it generates.

One example of this is, if you take a look at the Uchinanchu Festival from 1990, there is one of Higa’s high ranking female students who, demonstrates the Kusanku Sho kata. You can see the hip motion in her kata/technique.

I have not found Higa senseis style that utilized the hip motion.

If you have heard of Shinjinbukan (Shorin) of Onaga, a student of Yuchoku Higa, he utilizes the hip motion. Also in Okinawa, there is Minoru Higa, Katsuyuki Shimabukuro, and other students (just mentioning the ones I’ve seen in person) of Yuchoku Higa who practice that hip motion, aka “double hip”.

In regards to Kobudo, in Yamanni-Ryu, of Oshiro and Nishime, in what I would describe as, “single hip” movement. Take for example the Kesa uchi technique. I think it was Nishime who said, “It’s like bouncing a ball”. They use the hip, strike and bounce back [the bo] to a block; in other words just like you bounce a ball it comes back. It’s the same principle with striking and using the hip for power. Oshiro and Nishime’s techniques are very powerful in Kobudo with that concept. I should note, I don’t practice their Kobudo style, only had a basic introduction to it when Nishime came to our dojo to teach a seminar and one other time before that.

Tom I think "hip motion" is a better way to describe it.

I’ll stop here. I’m losing my thoughts and getting off track.

Regards,
Larry

[harleyt26]

Thank you for your response Larry,very good info you supplied. I guess that the hip motion is not that widely used in most of the other ryuha in okinawa.And I find that a pity because it generates so much power.In the shorin ryu that I practice it does utilize some hip for power but it is to confined by the stances to allow maximum power generation.They tend to use the hip by flowing from shiko dachi to zenkutsu dachi.It works well but it takes two stances to develope the power that we can get in one stance in our kobudo system.The Katsuyuki Shimabukuro you spoke of,would you know if there is any connection to Zenpo(Seibukan) or Tatsuo(Isshinryu)?One of my Isshinryu sensei is Donald Shapland who is also my kobudo instructor,so the hip motion is very pronounced with him but my other Isshinryu instructor is Bill Steigner who trains in Matayoshi weapons and is one that refers to it as double hip and does not use the same hip motion.That makes it a little confusing at times but very interesting to see the differences. Tom Hodges

[okinawagojuryu]

Tom ,

Hello , my friend , how are you ? Happy new Year , by the way . I think it is called the double hip , because , it looks as though you are bringing one side forward , than the other . Most style do it , IMO , however some emphasis it , if you will , a bit more . I think the way it is done within the Tesshinkan was instilled by Akamine , cause , as you see Inoue , as well as my own instructor Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei , who were both students of Taira Sensei , neither do it , to the extent that is done in the Tesshinkan , IMO . Take care , & hope to see you guys soon !

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

I study Ryu Kyu Kobudo,Taira,Akamine lineage.I understand through my sensei that Taira sent Akamine to study with Higa sensei to learn his hip motion,because Taira wanted it in his kobudo system.This is the only kobudo system that I study,so I do not have much to compare it to.I do train in some shorin ryu,goju ryu and isshin ryu.I have not found Higa senseis style that utilized the hip motion.My question is,why do so many refer to it as a "double"hip.I can see how it might appear to be if broken down and done very slowly but when performed correctly the hip is already reloading as the impact of the previous technique is landing.I guess what I am trying to get across is that it cannot be a "double" hip if the hip motion is shared by more than one technique.In our kobudo system the hip motion(gamanku or koshi)is a means of intensifying the power delivered to a technique.By training students to use this hip motion I have found that it takes on the average about two years to start progressing your hip motion and another year or two to become realy comfortable with it.The problem is that the people that I have found that do not understand this motion and label it "double" hip have not put a sufficient amount of training time to actually become comfortable with it.Once it becomes yours you will not beleive the power that can be developed by it. Tom Hodges

Tom:

You are right, it is the impression of two movements in the hip. Many styles us it without realizing what exactly the break down is. One of the things that attracted me to Akamine Kobudo was the hip movement. There are several types of hip movement some rotating some locking without the rotation. Now someone please correct me If I am wrong here as this is still not one of the areas I can speak with authority.

gamaku, to my understanding, locks forward and the power comes from the tanden area. Nihanchi kata in Isshin Ryu has the best examples of this. Many practioners of Isshin ryu use this. I beleive you have been around Isshin Ryu for a few years now and years ago it was taught as "no hip" in Isshin ryu. In fact there is hip in Isshin ryu but for years it was misunderstood. The double hip you talk about in Kobudo is simply a wind up motion, and yes given a series of techniques one blends into the other. The basic thrust motion in the basics of Kobudo are also found in Urashi Bo of Isshin ryu kobudo at the point just prior to the turn to do the spinning series.

Isshin Ryu does not "over emphasize" hip movement and in my opinion Kobudo "over emphasize's" it as a teaching method. One of the precepts of Shimabuku was to look at technique and balance the power to speed ratio. In other words a powerful technique Such as we find in Kobudo in a low stance tends to be slower than the same technique done from a slightly higher stance and (for example) by eliminating the "loading" of the hip" action that some see as a "double" movement.

I have often wondered why Shimabuku's kobudo kata had higher stances than the style that was handed down to Akamine and then on to Tamayose. I beleive that the reason stated above is the answer. Also remember that Kyan also taught him kobudo. I am not sure what kobudo influence he had but it would make sense if someone discovered he had trained in Matayoshi style of Kobudo.

I have done a few seminars with Kotoro Iha and have trained with his student Advincula Sensei and they both stand higher and tend to emphasize speed. Force = mass x velocity and based on that it would make sense to be able to generate the same power from a higher stance with a faster movement as a lower stance with a slightly slower movement.

These are my opinions based on my own research with the two styles of Kobudo. Tamayose is Shorin based practioner I beleive that Iha Sensei is also. Advincula sensei is Isshin Ryu Based with Goju and Shorin ranking. Advincula Sensei trained with Shimabuku for 8 years If I remember correctly.

Has anyone else thought about this?

Mike O'Leary

[okinawagojuryu]

Hello Mike ! My teacher Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei , as I stated was a direct student of Taira Shinken Sensei . His Kobudo , in the way that they move , is very different from that of Tomayose Sensei's Kobudo . I think this is because the use of Gamanku , was pushed by Akamine Sensei , & Taira's earlier students did'nt pick up that influence . You can see some footage of Nakamoto Sensei , performing Tsuken Sunakake No Eiku , & his son Mamoru Sensei performing Chatanyara No Sai here : www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/index.html .

[olddragon]

okinawagojuryu said:

Hello Mike ! My teacher Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei , as I stated was a direct student of Taira Shinken Sensei . His Kobudo , in the way that they move , is very different from that of Tomayose Sensei's Kobudo . I think this is because the use of Gamanku , was pushed by Akamine Sensei , & Taira's earlier students did'nt pick up that influence . You can see some footage of Nakamoto Sensei , performing Tsuken Sunakake No Eiku , & his son Mamoru Sensei performing Chatanyara No Sai here : www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/index.html .

I think we have a different definition of Gamaku!!!!! My understanding of Gamaku is it has very little rotation???

Mike O'Leary

[okinawagojuryu]

Prior to training w/ the Tesshinkan members here in FL , I've never really heard of the term Gamanku ; I've always heard/used the term Koshi . So , I thought this is a term to describe the way they move within the Tesshinkan , generally . Sorry for any misunderstanding .

[olddragon]

okinawagojuryu said:

Prior to training w/ the Tesshinkan members here in FL , I've never really heard of the term Gamanku ; I've always heard/used the term Koshi . So , I thought this is a term to describe the way they move within the Tesshinkan , generally . Sorry for any misunderstanding .

Interesting, because Tesshinkan is linked to alot of Isshin ryu people, and the Gamaku/ Koshi question has come up in the last year within this group also. I have researched it outside of this group and it seems that there are as many as 5 different types of hip movement referred to in Okinawan martial arts. May I ask what you have been told about these two terms and what definition you have. Also is Tamayose your source? or someone else. I beleive it is a very misunderstood term and somehow has been confused in the translation.

As I have said it is not something I can speak to with authority and put it to the group as to what anyone else knows about it.

Mike O'Leary

[okinawagojuryu]

I too am in the same boat as you , it seems . I really do'nt have much knowledge of the term Gamanku . I've heard it 1st when I was training w/ the Tesshinkan guys . However , I've never trained w/ Tomayose Sensei personally , so I can't speak of his teachings . I did ask Nakamoto Mamoru Sensei , thru a translator about Gamanku , & was told it's not really the hips , it's the muscles in that general area . Now , I do not know , if something was lost in translation , or not , so I do'nt know how accurate that statement to be . I too , would like to hear what others have to say .

[harleyt26]

Hi guys,I think Dave is probably correct because we were taught that the motion was done by rotating your waist on an imaginary line that went through the top of your head and exited out the center of your groin toward the floor(Domeitrich sensei refered to this as your "tanden").To do that would require usage of the muscles in that area to operate and control the actual motion of the hips.Gamanku may just be a word that describes using the muscle group necessary for that motion.I wonder how a okinawan dictionary would describe gamanku or koshi?

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

Hi guys,I think Dave is probably correct because we were taught that the motion was done by rotating your waist on an imaginary line that went through the top of your head and exited out the center of your groin toward the floor(Domeitrich sensei refered to this as your "tanden").To do that would require usage of the muscles in that area to operate and control the actual motion of the hips.Gamanku may just be a word that describes using the muscle group necessary for that motion.I wonder how a okinawan dictionary would describe gamanku or koshi?

Yes this is my understanding also... my earlier statement about no rotation was based on the "no rotation parallel to the deck" the rotation does happen in a locking forward motion or as you have described.

Mike O'Leary

[olddragon]

harleyt26 said:

I study Ryu Kyu Kobudo,Taira,Akamine lineage.I understand through my sensei that Taira sent Akamine to study with Higa sensei to learn his hip motion,because Taira wanted it in his kobudo system.This is the only kobudo system that I study,so I do not have much to compare it to.I do train in some shorin ryu,goju ryu and isshin ryu.I have not found Higa senseis style that utilized the hip motion.My question is,why do so many refer to it as a "double"hip.I can see how it might appear to be if broken down and done very slowly but when performed correctly the hip is already reloading as the impact of the previous technique is landing.I guess what I am trying to get across is that it cannot be a "double" hip if the hip motion is shared by more than one technique.In our kobudo system the hip motion(gamanku or koshi)is a means of intensifying the power delivered to a technique.By training students to use this hip motion I have found that it takes on the average about two years to start progressing your hip motion and another year or two to become realy comfortable with it.The problem is that the people that I have found that do not understand this motion and label it "double" hip have not put a sufficient amount of training time to actually become comfortable with it.Once it becomes yours you will not beleive the power that can be developed by it. Tom Hodges

OK..... in the middle of this reply I got a phone call from a couple of other people on this subject. (I sent the link so I will let them introduce themselves if they chose) I tracked down a few quotes from articles and correspondence I have on the relationship between Gamaku, Tesshin Kan, Akamine, Taira Shinken, and to Okinawa Karate. All quotes are from reliable resources and I will give their names if you wish to check them out.

From Correspondence with Sensei Daniel Kogan:

1. "Nagamine Sensei talked about the difference between koshi and gamaku, your sides vs. your lower back, in making power and focus."

2. Shoshin sensei also made the distinction between Koshi and Bamaku. We dont actually use the word "Gamaku" although we do make a distinction between the 7 different "hip" movements, 2 of which encompass the lower back or Gamaku region of the body."

Gamaku literally means "waist" or " small of the back"

(my translation of the rest of this sentence: it refers to the area on the back that would correspond to the tanden in the front.)

From Correspondence with AJ Advincula:

Bill Steigner wrote to Advincula:

Hi Sensei Advincula; Maybe it should be pointed out that Onaga Sensei was taught by Higa yuchoku Sensei who in his youth began Goju Ryu with Shinzato Jinan Sensei. higa Sensei taught both Gamaku and Chinkuchi in his Chibana based Shorin ryu, Hence Onaga Sensei use of both ways to punch. Higa Sensei also was asked by Taira Shinken to teach Gamaku to his followers of Ryu Kyu Kobudo which you see today in Ryu Kyu Kobudo and Tesshin Kan Kobudo. Since shimabuku Sensei studied with Taira Sensei who did not teach this Gamaku therefore not much hip shaking in Isshin Ryu Kobudo.

Advinculas response.

Bill, Great point on Higa Yuchoku. I am very familiar with gamaku because Iha Sensei of Ryukon kai uses it. His linage is also through Higa and Chibana and he also uses Goju-ryu terms muchimi and chinkuchi. As you stated, Taira Shinken did not teach or use gamaku yet in Akamine's Kobudo, gamaku is emphasized. Higa and Taira were good friends and it is evident Akamine got his gamaku from Higa and not Taira. "


I'll search for more info on this.
\

Mike O'Leary

[olddragon]

There are a few typos in the last note< they are mine not the person being quoted.

Mike O'Leary

[okinawagojuryu]

I am pretty good friends w/ Bill , I will tell him about the board , & try to get him to post . He is a great guy , & has a wealth of knowledge .

David