The Sai

[MightBHooked]

CStephens said:

Well, I figure a partner thread for the Bo discussion was in order - so, here we are.

I was wondering if there are any karate or kobujutsu practitioners on the forum who use the Sai in there training, and who might have some interesting things to say with regards to this weapon; ie, training methodologies, kata application, history of, et al.

Looking forward to your input!

We practice three Sai kata, all can be used with the 3rd Sai.

They are:
Sai Dai Ichi (Nakaima no Sai Dai Ichi)
Sai Dai Ni (Nakaima no Sai Dai Ni)
Sai Dai San (Shugoro no Sai Dai Ichi)

We also practice Bo / Sai kumite (2 man).

Regards,
Larry

[Gojumaster]

Larry,

Are able / interested in sharing some video?

MightBHooked said:

We practice three Sai kata, all can be used with the 3rd Sai.

They are:
Sai Dai Ichi (Nakaima no Sai Dai Ichi)
Sai Dai Ni (Nakaima no Sai Dai Ni)
Sai Dai San (Shugoro no Sai Dai Ichi)

We also practice Bo / Sai kumite (2 man).

Regards,
Larry

[MightBHooked]

Russ,

I would love to, but, I'm kind of behind in technology. I would need a digital camera right?

I still don't have a DVD player yet. Isn't that sad.

On your recent trip to Okinawa, you video taped kata from the tsunahiki where, someone performed Kusanku sho. Do you know what school they're from?

Regards,
Larry

[Gojumaster]

Larry,

I'm sorry, but I didn't catch any of the names at the demo, but if I had to make a guess, to me they look like Kyudokan.

MightBHooked said:

Russ,

I would love to, but, I'm kind of behind in technology. I would need a digital camera right?

I still don't have a DVD player yet. Isn't that sad.

On your recent trip to Okinawa, you video taped kata from the tsunahiki where, someone performed Kusanku sho. Do you know what school they're from?

Regards,
Larry

[Gojumaster]

Larry,

If you have access to an older VHS or and newer MiniDV-type video cam-corder, you could send me the tape and I could convert it to MPG.

MightBHooked said:

Russ,

I would love to, but, I'm kind of behind in technology. I would need a digital camera right?

I still don't have a DVD player yet. Isn't that sad.

On your recent trip to Okinawa, you video taped kata from the tsunahiki where, someone performed Kusanku sho. Do you know what school they're from?

Regards,
Larry

[MightBHooked]

Gojumaster said:

Larry,

I'm sorry, but I didn't catch any of the names at the demo, but if I had to make a guess, to me they look like Kyudokan.

I thought that too at first, but kyudokan has the double hip movement in their techniques and that's not present there.

The reason I ask is, there were a series of moves left out, probably for demonstration purposes, I guess.

Thanks again,
Larry

[MightBHooked]

Gojumaster said:

Larry,

If you have access to an older VHS or and newer MiniDV-type video cam-corder, you could send me the tape and I could convert it to MPG.

Russ,

I missed this one. The MiniDV, is that the smaller cassettes? If it is, I have that one.

Regards,
Larry

[Gojumaster]

Shows what I know about Shorin-ryu ryuha...

MightBHooked said:

I thought that too at first, but kyudokan has the double hip movement in their techniques and that's not present there.

The reason I ask is, there were a series of moves left out, probably for demonstration purposes, I guess.

Thanks again,
Larry

[Gojumaster]

Larry,

Yes, this is a small digital video cassette. The ones I buy are usually black w/red trim.

MightBHooked said:

Russ,

I missed this one. The MiniDV, is that the smaller cassettes? If it is, I have that one.

Regards,
Larry

[CStephens]

I've come across references to improved Bo manipulation caused by Sai training. Anyone have any experience with this?

[Gojumaster]

I usually think about it the other way...

Knowing how to use a staff aids in your sai training, especially in regards to distancing, trapping, and being aware of both ends of a longer weapon.

However, Sai training can be a great way to strengthen the wrists, and this does aid in staff work.

CStephens said:

I've come across references to improved Bo manipulation caused by Sai training. Anyone have any experience with this?

[CStephens]

Ah, good stuff. Thanks.

[CStephens]

Oh, another question:

Those who use Sai, what length do you tend to get?

[Gojumaster]

Similar to the tonfa in that it extends a little longer than the elbow, when held in the "closed" position.

CStephens said:

Oh, another question:

Those who use Sai, what length do you tend to get?

[olddragon]

The Sai is the one weapon that is suspect for not being devised from a tool. Even though bo, eko, nunchaku, tuifa, are all practiced by other cultures, the forms that are practiced in Okinawa contain moves that have been derived from china but developed by okinawan's. Even when the form is derived from China it has been translated over the years and given the characteristics of the Okinawan martial arts. The empty hand forms of the various styles in Okinawa have the same characteristic.

We must remember that the class of people we are talking about had no choice but to develop weapons from day to day implements. We must also realize that they may of seen Chinese people use a staff as a weapon but a starving culture would be very likely not able to afford training let alone be allowed to train in this weapon so mimicking occurred and in combination with necessity Okinawan Kobudo developed. Different cultures may have similar weapons and may have taken information from each other but as in empty hand definatly developed along their own lines.

I have seen a few comments on this topic regarding no foot work in Okinawa sai kata. My suggestion would be that we need to look further. My experience has been that there are many out there practicing Kobudo and many out there practicing "Karate with a stick" so to speak. As there is a difference between Okinawan styles of karate (some being low stance some being higher) there is also this difference between styles of Kobudo.

I have practiced Kobudo with Matayoshi practioner Kotoro Iha, and Ryu Kyu practioner Tamayose Hidemi. Iha sensei appeared to have less focus on stances and foot work but insisted on balance, which requires foot work and balance. Tamayose is extremly concerned with footwork and form. Ryu Kyu Kobudo is strong on low stances, they use the back stance and are very focused on hip movement. My experience with Matayoshi is that visually they do not appear to have these traits, but when you begin to practice them the truth comes out that in their visual presentations these movements are simply more subtle.

Advincula Sensei who is a student of Iha Sensei appears to disregard footwork in his kobudo but also is insistent that one have balance. To watch him you would think he does not use traditional stances and transitions but to look closely you would see that in fact there is technique and intent in all his moves and stances. The way he moves appears so natural that one tends not to see the stance or move easily.

One of the most interesting things I found that were common yet different in comparing the two styles was that one held the bo with the palm underneath and the other with the palm on top. In examining this posture each nocked the bo out of my hand striking from opposite directions. I see it simply as a difference in focus and today use each move as needed.

Isshin Ryu has 3 sai kata.

Chattan Yara no sai
Kusanku Sai
Kyan no sai.

Kusanku sai was developed by shimabuku sensei and incorporated Kyan no sai into it and as a result many IR stylists do not practice Kyan no sai.

Kyan no sai is suspected to be simply a collection of techniques that Shimabuku sensei put together and practiced after being taught them by his sensei Kyan. It is possible that Kyan gave him this "drill" but the origin is not really known.

Kyan is also credited with teaching Shimabuku Tokumine no Kun, bo kata.

Mike O'Leary