The Sai

[CStephens]

Well, I figure a partner thread for the Bo discussion was in order - so, here we are.

I was wondering if there are any karate or kobujutsu practitioners on the forum who use the Sai in there training, and who might have some interesting things to say with regards to this weapon; ie, training methodologies, kata application, history of, et al.

Looking forward to your input!

[Gojumaster]

Hmmm...

Looks like just you and me here.

Anyhow, in Matayoshi Kobudo there are 3 sai forms:
Matayoshi No Sai Dai Ichi (aka Ni Cho Sai)
Matayoshi No Sai Dai Ni (aka San Cho Sai)
Shinbaru No Sai

We practice a set of basics, then forms, then pre-arranged sparring versus other weapons.

CStephens said:

Well, I figure a partner thread for the Bo discussion was in order - so, here we are.

I was wondering if there are any karate or kobujutsu practitioners on the forum who use the Sai in there training, and who might have some interesting things to say with regards to this weapon; ie, training methodologies, kata application, history of, et al.

Looking forward to your input!

[CStephens]

Cool. Isshinryu usually has two sai kata (I believe), but I'm not sure how many my dojo teaches

For sure, we teach:

Chatan Yara no Sai
Kusanku Sai

I've heard something about Kyan no Sai being added onto either the end of Chatan Yara or Kusanku, but I'm not clear on that.

We also have one weapon sparring set using sai: Bo/Sai.

I'd love to give some kind of insight into our Sai training, but I've only been shown a very limited bit of Kusanku sai, and I don't actually own the weapons. For the past three years, my weapons focus has been on Tokumine no Kun and Chizi kun Bo, but I probably start Sai training at the beginning of the year.

[Eric Ling]

Okay folks,


Before going to subject matter, I need to inform everyone that I’ve been facing some technical issues with inserting names as moderators. Try any amendments or insertions, the box goes blank.

Sorry.

Okay, the Sai.

I know that Sai is a weapon done in:-

1. Okinawan/Japanese Martial arts.
2. Some Indonesian/Malay/Philippines Silats.
3. Southern Kung Fu both Fukien and Cantonese/Hakka.

So the question is this:-

Who invented this weapon?

How are the various martial arts doing their “Sais” – here I am looking for likeness and differences.

[Gojumaster]

As to the question of "who invented them":

Despite what you might hear some people say, very few of the Okinawan "kobudo" weapons were devised from indigenous tools.

The exceptions are: Kama (sickles), the Oar, and the Hoe.

The staff, sai, nunchaku, 3-section staff, tonfa (crutch), hoe, and suruchin are all found in Chinese martial arts in similar or identical forms.

About useage:
In Okinawan sai useage there are a few main categories of techniques:
-Useage that mirrors the empty-hand techniques
-Unique useage with the weapon "open"
-Trapping with the weapon (either "open" or "closed")
-Throwing the weapon (many forms are done with 3 sai, and 1, 2, or 3 are thrown)

Eric said:

So the question is this:-

Who invented this weapon?

How are the various martial arts doing their “Sais” – here I am looking for likeness and differences.

[Eric Ling]

Okay, contribution from Evert.

A scan from a book by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming.

[Nataraya]

The sai is a vicious-looking, short, metal weapon with a long history. Found in India, China, Indo-China, Malaya, and Indonesia, its presence on Okinawa probably derives from migrations from any one or more of these sources. Evidence exists which favors Indonesia as the place of origin. Its design prototype may be seen in the trisula or trident-shaped weapon of ancient times.

Ancient Indonesian civilizations on Sumatra and Java, which had contact with Okinawa, used the weapon in their combat systems. In the statue of Basera-an example of Kamakura period Japanese art-a military guardian deity is brandishing a Chinese sword in an overhead manner as if set to thrust or poke at the enemy.
The blade is separated from the handle by a hand- guard of a forked design, evidence that the Japanese knew of this design. The sai, however, never became popular in Japan and is almost entirely divorced from Japanese combat systems; it is only seen in those karate systems that have an Okinawan tradition. Sai use is primarily defensive and is effective against an enemy armed with blade, staff or stick, or "empty-hand" weapons. Sai technique follows closely to postures. It has always been a truncheon, never a blade weapon as sometimes erroneously reported. The sai may be used to deflect, block or parry a cutting or stroking attack of a bladed or staff weapon. This can be done in two fashions first, by intercepting the enemy's weapon with the main body of the shaft positioned ahead of the operator's hand as he grips the sai by its handle in a normal grip action.

The second method makes use of a quick snap like reversing action by which the main body of the shaft is laid along the underside of the user's forearm after the weapon is made to change its position and bring its butt end forward It is this light, rapid action that differentiates a sai master from a beginner. Counterattack techniques include using the pointed end for jabbing and thrusting actions with the hands; striking as with a club with the main portion of the shaft; poking or jabbing with the butt end of the shaft; or jabbing or hooking with the tines against the enemy's vital areas. The tines may also be used to catch the blade or shaft of the enemy's weapon, wedging it there by a twist of the wrist. Three sai are usually carried; one in each hand and one thrust through the belt or sash of the user. The third one in the belt is a replacement for one that may be lost in combat, or may serve as a projectile weapon. Some masters can pin the enemy's foot to the ground with a quick downward pitch of the sai. Expert technique can be seen today on Okinawa, but remains principally with the most experienced masters of te.

Source: D. F. Draeger, R.W. Smith. ‘Comprehensive Fighting Arts’. Kodansha. 1980

[Eric Ling]

Gojumaster said:

The exceptions are: Kama (sickles), the Oar, and the Hoe.

Russ,

The Oar and Hoe are both done in Tai Chor Southern Ancestor. The hoe is called "Changko" in this part of the world. Besides Tai Chor, the Hoe is also done in many Hakka systems like Lung Ying (Dragon Shape) boxing.

The sickle is a VERY common weapon with the Malays throughout SE Asia.

Their sickles come in many different designs/lengths etc etc...

[Gojumaster]

Eric,

I know the Hoe is used in other systems; I was just trying to say that in Okinawa, it actually IS an indiginous "tool". I guess I wasn't clear.

I did not know about the use of the oar outside of Okinawa. Thanks for that. Can't say I'm too surprised, though.

I haven't seen the sickle used anywhere else. Does it look similar to the ones used in Okinawa?

Thanks,

Eric said:

Russ,

The Oar and Hoe are both done in Tai Chor Southern Ancestor. The hoe is called "Changko" in this part of the world. Besides Tai Chor, the Hoe is also done in many Hakka systems like Lung Ying (Dragon Shape) boxing.

The sickle is a VERY common weapon with the Malays throughout SE Asia.

Their sickles come in many different designs/lengths etc etc...

[Eric Ling]

Russ,

The sickle that I've seen, done in Pentjak Silat, is more "circular".

I would put it down as very "silat" if you know what I mean.

The only karate kama I know is Shi-to ryu's. Done by the Singapore Shi-to group.

Sorry, my impression of karate weapons system is that it mirrors the way they do their empty hand forms.

I downloaded some clips from your site and again this is the feeling I got.

Saw a demo early this year in the "World Pentjak Silat" conference here. One player was doing the sickle and he did half his "bunga" in a "kneeling" and sitting stance.

[Gojumaster]

Eric,

I know there is a lot of bad karate out there (and bad Kobudo, too). It's unfortunate, but it seems that some of the worst stuff is what you see most often.

Anyhow Eric, I'll make some videos of my Kobudo teacher available to you. With any luck, you'll see something there to give you just a bit of hope. Check my site soon, and look for "Gakiya Yoshiaki" or "Matayoshi Kobudo".

Best Regards,

Eric said:

Russ,

The sickle that I've seen, done in Pentjak Silat, is more "circular".

I would put it down as very "silat" if you know what I mean.

The only karate kama I know is Shi-to ryu's. Done by the Singapore Shi-to group.

Sorry, my impression of karate weapons system is that it mirrors the way they do their empty hand forms.

I downloaded some clips from your site and again this is the feeling I got.

Saw a demo early this year in the "World Pentjak Silat" conference here. One player was doing the sickle and he did half his "bunga" in a "kneeling" and sitting stance.

[pitbull]

as per what i saw, the difference in chinese and okinawan sais that i see is handling and footwork. i dont see much footwork going on the okinawan sai and chinese sai strike w the rod as well as poke. however,i also notice that the okinawans do a very good job at the flicking and rotating aspect, also i see that okinawans have 1 extra sai for throwing one other thing that i noticed is that the chinese sais are longer and heavier. extending some short inches from the elbow...what i see may not be accurate so pls bear with me. i think there will be okinawans again this quanzhou competition :-) ill take video's of them and try posting it somewhere for comparison. i may learn the sai next year too...from one of our seniors

what about names? we call it 'sang te pi' or 2x short striking thing...some call it the metal ruler,while northern folks that i met just last month called it the 'tie cher' or metal fork...

as for sets,at our club we have sai vs horse cutter,sai vs 7ft pole and sai vs tiger fork...

just wrote these for comparison if anybody is interested

PS: i bought a cheap okinawan version of the sai last month...cost some $45us hehehe the quality isnt all that bad though,its made of copper which is good since it wont rust and is chrome plated.

[CStephens]

Wow, good stuff.

[pitbull]

another note...the sai is sometimes used with another weapon in the other hand usually the right hang...the left w the sai for parrying the right with another weapon for attack., as to why the sai is popular in fujian is bec it can be conceald easily in the waists or legs. our club's founding master is a sai adept too...the used the sai on the left hand then a leather whip on the right and used it to fight manchurian soldiers in an ambush sometime in the early years of the last century(wow! we ARE in the 21st century now!)...

[pitbull]

as for silat (silat people pls dont crucify me) some of not many silats actually have many things that came from karate and other stuff.however they wont admit it. i have lots of respect for the original silats though...the same w filipino martial arts...some are a mixture from many MA's..mostly japanese...an amalgam...then when you ask them where and who tought them,they will say "my grandfather' who tought him 'i dunno..hes dead already how can i ask him' sort of scenario...arnis is very original however some aspects are borrowed from karate and judo...some will openly admit it while some will say its original...there is never shame in looking back and acknowledging the roots. it only demonstrates humility and respect...which is both vital for self enrichment...if one becomes too proud then one is easily misguided and dissillusioned


oooops...forgot to add this in the 1st post...i am a sai fanatic...i would like to learn all incarnations and expression of this beautiful weapon,may it be chinese or otherwise...i hope we can go deeper into the study of this weapon.