The Bo

[CStephens]

Sorry about the strange transmission. I blame it on my keyboard. And the protein shake I spilled on it. A while ago. . . anyway.

For starters, are there any karate students/kobujutsu practitioners on-site who place a decent bit of importance in learning the Bo?

For me, I'd never been particularly interested in the weapons arts of Okinawa, at least from a purely martial standpoint. After all, it's not all that legal to walk about town with a pair of sai, and it's a rare thing to have access to a tuifa (tonfa) in a self defense situation. However, I've always had a certain fascination with the Bo. I've rarely been in any place that doesn't have something so similar to a bo that I could use it for defense.

Again, if there are any Karate/Kobujutsu practitioners on-board, please share your thoughts on this particular weapon. I'll try to post a bit more (hopefully) interesting thoughts after I get my computer in proper working order.

[Seeker]

CStephens said:

After all, it's not all that legal to walk about town with a pair of sai, and it's a rare thing to have access to a tuifa (tonfa) in a self defense situation.

You have a good point there about the legality and not to mention the morality of this, in the past they proved to be valuable weapons to the Ryukyuian people's due to the Japanese satsuma invasion of 1609, when the satsuma clan forced a wepoans ban on the ryukyu people, and strictly forbid swords.
However it is common knowledge on Okinawa today that weapons are an extension of the empty hand, and can be used likley, they train the body to react better and differently to situations, also improve strength, coordination, and over all martial ability, the weapons are invaluable to the Okinawan arts.
Also the staff weapons (i.e. bo, jo, tan bo) can be easily adapted to sticks, brrom handels, tree limbs ect. but again this is only the face value of okinwan kobudo.

But a question comes to mind if you have not been interested in Ryukyu Kobudo, why did you offer to be the moderator?

Yours in the arts,
--Josh Paszkiewicz

[CStephens]

First, sorry about the extreme delay in the post; I had it typed in a word processor to copy over here, then just closed it without posting. Anyway . . .

Chizikunbo said:

You have a good point there about the legality and not to mention the morality of this, in the past they proved to be valuable weapons to the Ryukyuian people's due to the Japanese satsuma invasion of 1609, when the satsuma clan forced a wepoans ban on the ryukyu people, and strictly forbid swords.

There was indeed such a weapons ban put in place by the Satsuma, but they were not the first people to do so. The Uchinadi ruling class had several times previous to this enforced the ban on private weapons . . . for the non-ruling class. However, those involved with or related to the upper echelon of society were still allowed to maintain weapons.

However it is common knowledge on Okinawa today that weapons are an extension of the empty hand, and can be used likley, they train the body to react better and differently to situations, also improve strength, coordination, and over all martial ability, the weapons are invaluable to the Okinawan arts.

I disagree about the weapons being an extension of the hand. Most of the kobujutsu/do instructors with whom I've spoken hold a completely different idea: the weapon is not an extension so much as an addition. Many weapons (long weapons in particular) do not work as well when employed with purely non-weapon body mechanics, stances, and methods of power generation. Again, I look primarily to the staff (and similar) weapons for examples of this.

Also the staff weapons (i.e. bo, jo, tan bo) can be easily adapted to sticks, brrom handels, tree limbs ect. but again this is only the face value of okinwan kobudo.

I agree. I've yet to be in a position where I did not have almost immediate access to weapons nearly identical in form or function to staff-type weapons. The Chizi kun bo, as a matter of fact, is my favority weapon. Translates so well to all manner of objects; pens, remote controls, even empty hands.

But a question comes to mind if you have not been interested in Ryukyu Kobudo, why did you offer to be the moderator?

Yours in the arts,
--Josh Paszkiewicz

That's a good question. The answer is, because I want to become more knowledgeable on the subject. Though I am not overly passionate about the weapons arts, I still see them as necessary, and therefore worth learning and exploring.

[Seeker]

Hello,

There was indeed such a weapons ban put in place by the Satsuma, but they were not the first people to do so. The Uchinadi ruling class had several times previous to this enforced the ban on private weapons . . . for the non-ruling class. However, those involved with or related to the upper echelon of society were still allowed to maintain weapons.

True the Sho dynasty did this many times, but it was never really enforced asit was by the satsuma

I disagree about the weapons being an extension of the hand. Most of the kobujutsu/do instructors with whom I've spoken hold a completely different idea: the weapon is not an extension so much as an addition. Many weapons (long weapons in particular) do not work as well when employed with purely non-weapon body mechanics, stances, and methods of power generation. Again, I look primarily to the staff (and similar) weapons for examples of this.

You can disagree but this information is widley accepted as fact on the Ryukyu mainland, and by Kobudo "masters" not just teachers

[Seeker]

I agree. I've yet to be in a position where I did not have almost immediate access to weapons nearly identical in form or function to staff-type weapons. The Chizi kun bo, as a matter of fact, is my favority weapon. Translates so well to all manner of objects; pens, remote controls, even empty hands.

True, however the need for these weapons in perserving the art is simply well I am at a loss of words (lol) However interesting that you know of the Chizikunbo, do you practice it?
An again witht he sticks it is also invaluable if you accept that they are an extension of the hands which I will adress again later, (no offense intended)

That's a good question. The answer is, because I want to become more knowledgeable on the subject. Though I am not overly passionate about the weapons arts, I still see them as necessary, and therefore worth learning and exploring.

No offense, but in my previouse experience, a moderator should be someone knowledgeable about the subject to correct or see through liars, I see you have a bit of info and I commend you for that.
I also commend you for your passion that you are cultivationg, keep up the good work

[CStephens]

Chizikunbo said:

True the Sho dynasty did this many times, but it was never really enforced asit was by the satsuma

That's true. Seems like military forces just loathe armed opponents Can't imagine why.

You can disagree but this information is widley accepted as fact on the Ryukyu mainland, and by Kobudo "masters" not just teachers

I'll take your word on that. I've yet to be able to make a visit to Okinawan, and truth be told, I've only spoken with 5 or 6 American instructors of the art, mostly Matayoshi kobudo men.

[CStephens]

Chizikunbo said:

True, however the need for these weapons in perserving the art is simply well I am at a loss of words (lol)

This is a point wherein I am considered a heretic; I do not practice karate for the preservance of the art. I practice it for improved self defense abilities and . . . uh . . . because it feels like the thing to do. Though I am not against preservance of the arts, I do not wish to practice them having that as a goal.

However interesting that you know of the Chizikunbo, do you practice it?

Indeed. I've had the Chizi kun Bo kata of Matayoshi Kobudo for about as long as I've been in karate - learned it from a visiting instructor friend of my teacher as I was learning the tail-end of Seisan, the first kata in Isshinryu.

An again witht he sticks it is also invaluable if you accept that they are an extension of the hands which I will adress again later, (no offense intended)

I agree the smaller the weapon, the easier it is to utilize nigh-empty hand body mechanics, particularly when employing the Chizi kun Bo and the Tekku.

No offense, but in my previouse experience, a moderator should be someone knowledgeable about the subject to correct or see through liars, I see you have a bit of info and I commend you for that.
I also commend you for your passion that you are cultivationg, keep up the good work

I'd encourage you to PM or email Mr. Ling about getting on as a moderator on this forum as well. It can't hurt to have two people looking out for false information/just plain bad posters. And I'd appreciate having a knowledgeable moderator such as yourself whom I could tap for a little bit of information.

Good posts. Let's keep it up.

[Seeker]

I guess I will contact Mr Ling, thanks for being so open, that is what makes a good forum.

As far as perserving the MA's, true we all start for self defense, or some othermeans, however we all take a diffent route. I found the cultural value and heritage, as well as a way of life protection and a lifetime of enjoyment, that is my personal reason to practice and spread the word, I want others to enjoy this as much as me!

[CStephens]

Chizikunbo said:

I guess I will contact Mr Ling, thanks for being so open, that is what makes a good forum.

Indeed it is. This forum really seems like it's going to attract some of the more knowledgeable and friendly martial artists who abide online, and I wouldn't want to be one to spoil such an atmosphere. And I'm always chomping at the bit to learn from those more knowledgeable about the arts, in particular the OMA.

As far as perserving the MA's, true we all start for self defense, or some othermeans, however we all take a diffent route. I found the cultural value and heritage, as well as a way of life protection and a lifetime of enjoyment, that is my personal reason to practice and spread the word, I want others to enjoy this as much as me!

There's not a darn thing wrong with that. I commend you, and anyone else, who takes that route in their training. It definetly takes a great bit of skill and determination. Keep it up.

[CStephens]

Here's and interesting article about teh weapons bans in Okinawa.

[Seeker]

thats a great artical, thanks for the link, I email the administrator/owner of that site, and have helped him correct a few errors in the history section, but overall they are a good group of dedicated martial artsits whom are making a great effor to spread the OMA's and over all it is a great website, but I had never found that artical before,
Thanks!

[Gojumaster]

CStephens,

Just to keep things clear, Chizikun bo kata is not a part of Matayoshi Kobudo system. The reason this mix-up occaisionally occurs is because large number of Matayoshi Kobudo students in the USA are descended from the teachings of Kimo Wall (www.KimoWall.org/), who ALSO teaches a Chizikun Bo kata.

However, Tekko and Tecchu are part of the Matayoshi Kobudo system.

Best Regards,

Russ Smith
www.Goju-Ryu.info/

CStephens said:

This is a point wherein I am considered a heretic; I do not practice karate for the preservance of the art. I practice it for improved self defense abilities and . . . uh . . . because it feels like the thing to do. Though I am not against preservance of the arts, I do not wish to practice them having that as a goal.



Indeed. I've had the CHizi kun Bo kata of Matayoshi Kobudo for about as long as I've been in karate - learned it from a visiting instructor friend of my teacher as I was learning the tail-end of Seisan, the first kata in Isshinryu.



I agree the smaller the weapon, the easier it is to utilize nigh-empty hand body mechanics, particularly when employing the Chizi kun Bo and the Tekku.



I'd encourage you to PM or email Mr. Ling about getting on as a moderator on this forum as well. It can't hurt to have two people looking out for false information/just plain bad posters. And I'd appreciate having a knowledgeable moderator such as yourself whom I could tap for a little bit of information.

GOod posts. Let's keep it up.

[Seeker]

I did not think many people actually practiced Chizikunbo, it is much different in usage than Tekko and other like weapons...

[CStephens]

Gojumaster said:

CStephens,

Just to keep things clear, Chizikun bo kata is not a part of Matayoshi Kobudo system. The reason this mix-up occaisionally occurs is because large number of Matayoshi Kobudo students in the USA are descended from the teachings of Kimo Wall (www.KimoWall.org/), who ALSO teaches a Chizikun Bo kata.

However, Tekko and Tecchu are part of the Matayoshi Kobudo system.

Best Regards,

Russ Smith
www.Goju-Ryu.info/

I don't know how I missed this post.

The sensei I learned the kata from, Terry Reed, a Gojuryu Go Dan (I don't know his rank in Matayoshi) is a student of Kimo Wall.

Previous to my joining my Isshinryu dojo, there was quite a bit of cross-pollination of techniques between Sensei Reed's dojo and my own, at least as relates to weapon's and associated techniques. Now, though, we do not have as many opportunities to work between schools, but there is enough of a student base from before to allow a slightly different perspective.

[Gojumaster]

Wow,

Small world. I was in Terry Reed's dojo (should I say farmhouse?) a few years back when we were first learning the kata from Kimo Sensei.

CStephens said:

I don't know how I missed this post.

The sensei I learned the kata from, Terry Reed, a Gojuryu Go Dan (I don't know his rank in Matayoshi) is a student of Kimo Wall.

Previous to my joining my Isshinryu dojo, there was quite a bit of cross-pollination of techniques between Sensei Reed's dojo and my own, at least as relates to weapon's and associated techniques. Now, though, we do not have as many opportunities to work between schools, but there is enough of a student base from before to allow a slightly different perspective.