I was never taught to move back,that would be a defensive move that would indicate to your opponent that you are losing.We are taught to receive the technique that may appear as a move back but it is only to allow room to perform a counter technique.Sidestepping and moving into a technique are the same thing,We call it slipping a punch.As you sidestep and slip the punch or technique you are actually moving in at an angle.Angles are very important.I was taught not to move straight forward or back but to only move at angles.
Depends on the attack/attacker. Depends on the defense/defender.
Sometimes straight back is best sometimes straight forward is best. Everything starts with the feet up through the one point. We teach for simplicity sake that there are 8 eight directions of movement. It is not the directions you move but how you move and carry your center has a huge impact on whether your waza works. Especially when you are connected to your opponent.
If all you do is punch and kick then it probably don’t matter as much I guess. If this is the case you may be able to just work angles and counter strike.
Things are not so clear cut in my karate style. Trying to drill in principles through pushing and pulling hands helps a lot I think. Sorry if this does not make sense.
As I see movement as a weapon within the tool kit, the answer I would give is that they are situational responses, neither advanced or basic, depending on the circumstances.
Setting aside turning (a primary investigation of my own) as a way to respond to attacks from the rear, I can see a number of different potentials.
Moving forward is often more an offensive answer, thought it can be done to jam the attack.
But depending on how you block/parry, those answers can either deflect or draw the opponent in, so you don't have to move forward to get the same response.
Or if you begin a defense, but as you start you realize you've misjudged the timing of their attack, and you use replacement stepping to draw back to give yourself more time to respond, its a retreat, but a strategic one, which is very advanced to pull off when pressed.
I think the simplest answer is that there is no simple answer.
Here’s my 2 cents’ but please understand that I am a kung fu player so my views might be biased. Be kind – after all we are all still expected to be in the festive mood. ;D ;D ;D
The documentary did illustrate the 3 concepts using 2 men prearranged sparring scenarios. Let me try and recall them.
1. Beginner’s level. Attacker move in with a middle punch. Defender move back and use a middle outside block (chudan yoko uke) and counter with a upper punch to the attacker’s face. 2. Intermediate’s level. Attacker does the same. Defender move sideward and do a shoto uke I think. These guys must be from Shotokan or something because the stance used was a back stance and not the “cat” stance. The leg closest to the attacker was use to do a snappy mawashi-geri. 3. Advance’s level. Attacker prepares to move in. Defender pre-empts and skips in with a back fist to the face and another middle punch with the other hand.
These were all very well done by obviously very seasoned Karate-ka. The speed was really first-rate
I recorded this and the tape might still be in my Singapore’s apartment someplace.
I was talking about this with some of my Kung Fu elders back then and these were their comments:-
• Never train to move back, which is kind of like a natural tendency. Training, for all purposes, must be geared to overcome this predisposition. Their rationale is that most offensive training trains you to go forward. Going backwards therefore fall into the very stratagem they need. Going backwards is slower than advancing is the other reasoning. • Sidestepping is the keystone concept of my Fuzhou Crane training. Whether offensive or defensive, we want to force the fight to opponent’s blind spot. And we side step to both the inside and outside. The whole idea is to make the opponent turn and many techniques are designed to take the opponent during this turning. • Moving in before or during the action come within the “using offense as defense” principle of CKF. Jamming, smothering and even bridge breakings are the tools that come to mind.
I agree that tools deployment is situational. But how one trains regularly determines his/her reactions to situations.
My little contribution is really very sketchy.
Hope to hear more and we’ll go deeper.
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2005 1:44:01 GMT -5 by Eric Ling
So much of what we train in our tribe revolves around bridging and grabbing etc..... This is where a lot of our backward angles come into play. Also rising and sinking. Moving back and sinking into a low stance using you body weight to pull is an example. We don’t push and pull with our arms, we push and pull with our whole bodies.
In Japanese Karate they use the following concepts to describe timing issues in sparring. Most schools I am familiar with train for all 3 they are:
1) Go No Sen - Means reacting to an attack after it is initiated, or block then counter. 2) Sen No Sen - Means intercepting the attack immediately.
3) Sensen No Sen - Means to anticipate the attack.
FWIW I was taught these same exact concepts by my Kendo teacher Tatsumi Sensei.
Yes, I guess I mean Goju for the most part. Though I have seen people who also call themselves Goju who do not fight anything like us. Some schools practice the same dances but do not apply the principles of the forms as interpreted by my teachers when they fight
I didn’t see the Discovery channel show. It may have been Koshin Iha of the Jundokan. That is just a wild guess. He is a famous teacher named Iha though there are probably others.
By trapping hands exercise I am guessing you saw Kakie. This is a large part of what we do.
First I don't think we can really explore the concept of motion usage by the framework of that original article. It's too simplistic and ignores many layers of usage.
As for moving backwards. First it is true someone can explode forewad faster than you can move backward, so in strictly linear fashion retreating from an attack is not optimal.
But I think there are several different players here.
One is the tactical situation, and the amount of surprise involved. Often we have to work from less than optimal conditions, and what you don't practice can definately work against you.
Two, the concept of defending while moving backward is likely a beginning training tool, to first develop that reward motion, and second to force one to work against hard attacks from the front.
But in practice, it is the same reward motion if you angle away from the attack to the rear corner, and though you are moving backward slower than the attack, by changing the angle you are actually removing yourself from their attack, and moving away gives you more time, and of course the centerline you present to their attack, leaves about a 20 degree angle of entry, frequently a great attack line in its own right, one their attack isn't ready to counter, frequently.
Of course lateral and forward responses, layered into the choice of movement, and weapon usage create a more complete picture.
I was waiting for more and that is why I left my earlier post opened- ended.
True, many systems Chinese or non-Chinese, use the rearward response as a training tool.
I guess in the program, that was the theme they were portraying.
You learn to move back, away from immediate danger and then response.
Moving laterally requires a little more skill.
And of course moving into an attack or anticipating an attack calls for very good timing. Many of my friends in “sports karate” would attest to the last point. The Japanese has taken this to “breathtaking” level – seen with my own eyes in many APUKO tournaments held in my part of the world.
Moving along, there is this CKF concept that goes like this:-
“You are the most vulnerable when you are attacking.”<br> Take Shaolin Southern Monkey boxing for example.
A vital part of their training is footwork and moving back footwork is none of that linear retreating. They zigzag, skip and even do what is commonly known as “flower jump”. Oftentimes in a "broken rhythm" manner.
Another thing that they do is moving back and hitting out at the same time.
One equivalent would be like the way a TKD player might retreat and doing a front kick at the same time. This is usually done using the leading leg. They make a connection; you can bet that their back leg will swing into action!
I have also watched Muay Thai matches where the Thais keep moving back and just taking whatever that is coming. Next thing you know, bam, they do their swing round kick and down their opponents.
This is akin to what we call “taking the pain ploy” in CKF. As long as my face/groin area is not hit, I would take “pain” inflicted elsewhere.
In Tai Chor, part of the “Iron shirt” training is to prepare you for this. Take a middle punch for instance and trade it for a face punch to the opponent.
Love the way this thread is turning out - footwork. Now, if only I can get some Kung Fu members to chip in here.
The internal styles - Hsing I and Pak Kua, 2 contrasting styles and very different footworks.