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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 9, 2005 3:22:17 GMT -5
Seiunchin (Isshinryu). I tend to use it as bringing someone over my shoulder and scooping them up into a fireman's carry/throw (kinda like the "dump" in Wansu) or as an attack into the elbow, triceps, or armpit. Cody, Do that and it becomes a Lohan technique. "Lohan Dan San" or "Lohan Lifting Mountain". Aaaaaaaaarrggggghhhhh, why don't we just quit martial arts and take up stamps collecting.... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 9, 2005 10:04:42 GMT -5
Goju Ryu ShisochinOnly this means "4 Directions Battle". The rest need some figuring out from the Kanji point of view - could be just phonetic, not sure. Apparently phonetic use of kanji for kata names was rampant in karate at the time. It could well be that the masters of the day "spelled" things phonetically on occasion and may not have had the characters for the kata names given to them from their teachers. To compound things, the masters may have chosen differen albeit similar sounding characters to reflect what they wanted emphasized. I've not heard any talk of insects in karate. Rob
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 9, 2005 10:30:04 GMT -5
I've read that probably on the internet somewhere. Also seen it conjectured that Shisochin may have been developed after Miyagi visited the Jing Wu Athletic Association. I think that was around 1933. Besides mantis/cricket other influences may have been Yang style Taijiquan. Shisochin does parting the wild horses mane when the form steps off angle before the arm break. I have trained with a teacher who's Goju does not do that however. He says the old way was to step out straight because the kaisai was always to the front. The off angle step, in what appears to be parting the horse's mane, was incorporated later for asthetic reason he says. When you see what he does in Shisochin and the way he says is the KoDo ,or old way, of Seiunchin you see a lot of similarities or shared techniques between the two forms you otherwise do not see in other kans. I have no idea regarding what is really true. I do not think it matters much either way. I believe if you do not practice 2 man sets it is moot. If you do 2 man sets and kakie and have a good teacher you should learn how to apply your techniques. I can't learn by dancing, but I am probably in the wrong. This must come from my years in Judo where they make you practice all of your techniques on people. {edit for bad grammer. I still probably didn't get it all. The White Possum will let me know}
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Post by gwilliams on Mar 9, 2005 16:08:27 GMT -5
Ah, Grasshopper, you misspell g-r-a-m-m-a-r. ;D
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 9, 2005 22:38:12 GMT -5
The same technique done by Pak Kua folks......
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Post by olddragon on Mar 10, 2005 1:01:02 GMT -5
Cody, Do that and it becomes a Lohan technique. "Lohan Dan San" or "Lohan Lifting Mountain". Aaaaaaaaarrggggghhhhh, why don't we just quit martial arts and take up stamps collecting.... ;D ;D ;D I do Isshin ryu seiunchin, I have been told it is translated as "Push, Pull" and most of the lessons in the kata relate to this, or the 5 principles of 1. Push, 2. pull, 3. rise, 4. fall and 5. centre. Of course you have to have rise to have fall, push to have pull and in fact when you have rise and fall there is usually a push and pull to go with it and of course the center is always important. This is my take on things and the translation I have been told, we take our seiunchin from Goju, Miyagi lineage. We do have some subtle differences in direction of the opening but the bunkai is the same. Mike
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 10, 2005 7:31:07 GMT -5
Hey Cody, Your "Fireman's Lift" - done Pak Kua style....
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Post by CStephens on Mar 10, 2005 23:29:26 GMT -5
Hey Cody, Your "Fireman's Lift" - done Pak Kua style.... Cool. When I do the pickup, I tend to drop my hips lower so I can keep my back straight - I feel it gives me more core stability. Of course, my doctor and my instructor both say I'm too old to be 21, so that might be something to keep in mind.
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Post by CStephens on Mar 10, 2005 23:31:01 GMT -5
I believe if you do not practice 2 man sets it is moot. If you do 2 man sets and kakie and have a good teacher you should learn how to apply your techniques. I can't learn by dancing, but I am probably in the wrong. This must come from my years in Judo where they make you practice all of your techniques on people. Yay! First time I've seen some common sense like that spelled out in some time. Just add in sparring of various intensities, and I call perfection on that idea.
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 11, 2005 3:59:22 GMT -5
Ah, 2 men set - a integral part of martial training. I got a thread in the Southern Kung Fu section talking about this. In old schools, every solo form comes complete with a 2 men set - so there you go. Anyway, another karate technique here for discussion:- This is taken from a Goju article. Where is this technique found, which kata ?
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Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Mar 11, 2005 6:04:47 GMT -5
Good morning Eric,
I'm between work travel a the moment (it's a busy month for that).
As for which kata shows this technique I can extrapolate it from several sources I know (which does not necessarily explain it for the Goju sources).
First I was shown this as a sparring technique by one of my origina instructors about 30 years ago.
As a kata, I can show this as an interpretation of the Isshinryu Kusanku where you drop to the floor, though it is not ofte taught that way in Isshinryu in my experience.
That variation came form an Indonesian Shotokan instructor using the same technique in his family version of Empi (a little different from the JKA version which does not include that drop to the floor). THe same instructor shared the same move first as a tjimande drill and then exactly done that way in one of his tjimande juru.
I have also seen Kanazawa Sensei (in a french karate magazine) use a similar movement (going from memory right now, I can't dig out that magazine at this moment.
But I suspect most times this is one of the additional non kata techniques that may be within a system.
On the whole there are technqiues or drills within karate instruction that are not in kata. Off hand I have Hiagonna M. doing a neat elbow set that is not in kata, and most karate schools I've seen do elbow drills not in their kata (unlike Isshinryu that incorpoates elbow strikes more directly in Wansu and SunNUSu Kata, or Goju and Isshinryu using a rising elbow strike in the Seiunchin kata too.)
O' yes I've also seen a Hawrang Do school in California that had all the students practicing a variation of this for the entire class.
O'yes, in the interest of full disclosure I have a Hakutsuru variation (claimed to come from Soken, but after research find it's a modern creation that does link to many Okinawan kata traditions, is very long too) that incorporates a similar movment too, with a floor entry that is very close to the way my original linstructor taught it as a sparring response.
From my persective the picture might have several ways of entry to the floor and end up in this position.
Pleasantly,
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Post by gwilliams on Mar 11, 2005 6:16:55 GMT -5
There are several kata in nutso-ryu that use a similar bunkai...Unshu, Kosokun Dai both have moves that have often been interpreted this way. It is not always the best idea to go to your knee unless you are d**ned sure of the technique or desperate. Shi To ryu kata are full of elbows, and I like the elbow drills Higaonna teaches. Gene
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Post by Gojumaster on Mar 11, 2005 11:09:41 GMT -5
Eric, This is not in any of the Goju-Ryu kata. Ah, 2 men set - a integral part of martial training. I got a thread in the Southern Kung Fu section talking about this. In old schools, every solo form comes complete with a 2 men set - so there you go. Anyway, another karate technique here for discussion:- This is taken from a Goju article. Where is this technique found, which kata ?
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 11, 2005 11:24:27 GMT -5
Eric, This is not in any of the Goju-Ryu kata. Not even as part of your kicking skill set ? I am sure I've seen many Karate folks do this "tiger tail" kick and I assumed it's a routine. You do "kin-geri" which is our standard White Crane kick - is this kick in any kata ? Thanks.
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Post by Gojumaster on Mar 11, 2005 11:31:38 GMT -5
Yes, some groups do practice that kick as part of their repertiore of basic technique, however, it's not in the standard 12 kata of Goju-Ryu. The primary kicking techniques in Goju-Ryu kata are front kick (kin-geri, mae-geri, kakato-geri) (with variations consisting of the ball of the foot, the heel, and the toes), the low side kick to the knee, and various sweeps and stomps. As was mentioned by one of our S h i t o-ryu members, this kick is part of Unsu (cloud hands) kata, and Kusanku kata has a movement that is "interpreted" as either the kick shown, or a "broom sweep". Not even as part of your kicking skill set ? I am sure I've seen many Karate folks do this "tiger tail" kick and I assumed it's a routine. You do "kin-geri" which is our standard White Crane kick - is this kick in any kata ? Thanks.
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