Karate Kata and Kung Fu.

[Eric Ling]

Hi folks.

Got this chart from a European Karate site. The chart of Shotokan's Sochin.

I have seen this kata performed many times by my KeiShinKan friends in Singapore and it always reminded me of Lohan.

Anybody else get this same feeling?

[CStephens]

Kinda sorta reminds me of the kata Kusanku, which then reminds me very much of lohan, at least that which i've seen/read.

[Nataraya]

Dear Gentlemen,

Originally my roots were Shaolin Kempo and later I qualified myself as a karate teacher by the Karate Do Bond Nederland. But in 1986 I decided to focus 100% on Southern Boxing, so I disagreeistent took over the school. Sold most of my books and neglect most of it. Still some of my old students have schools and I am an examinator of this school. So still affinity with it, especially saifa, which is an important concept in Shaolin Kempo as done in the Netherlands.


This morning I visit Russ Smith his homepage and did download the clips with relations to Chinese Boxing. To be honest I am fascinated again with those performances and can observe them now through Cantonese glasses.

In this forum we use to compare systems and analyse 'ingredients' out of the form, such as Lohan and Crane. But it is not really concrete (for me) and a focused search. I thought about an idea which I like to discuss with all of you. What do you think if we are going to discuss the ingredients of Chinese orientated kata's and see how far we can analyse them? Together we cover a rather broad range of systems. I am sure that this path might be very interesting for all of us.

So we are NOT critisizing the performer, but will look to movements. actions and try to lable this to a kind of animal, element and direction (Northern, Southern, Lohan, Plum blossom...)

We take one kata at a time, as mentioned in one of the threads. For instance starting with Saifa?

Kind regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Evert,

Sounds like a plan.

As usual, you "out rank" me, you go first.

(another way of saying you are older than me hehehehe).

;D ;D ;D

[Eric Ling]

Hi folks,

Got a link from a friend leading to a “PaiHo” kata video clip.

Viewed it several times and got to say that this is by far the most “Crane” kata I’ve seen.

Many recognizable techniques throughout the whole kata even though the kata itself is not relatable to any Chinese White Crane I’ve seen or do.

Anyone with more info on this kata?

Thanks.

[Gojumaster]

You'd have to share the link with us, so we can take a look.

Eric said:

Hi folks,

Got a link from a friend leading to a “PaiHo” kata video clip.

Viewed it several times and got to say that this is by far the most “Crane” kata I’ve seen.

Many recognizable techniques throughout the whole kata even though the kata itself is not relatable to any Chinese White Crane I’ve seen or do.

Anyone with more info on this kata?

Thanks.

[Eric Ling]

Gojumaster said:

You'd have to share the link with us, so we can take a look.

www.ee.kent.ac.uk/~cpb2/Dentokan/Goju_Ryu/

[Gojumaster]

Eric,

Wow, that's a lot of grumpy faces!! Is it still raining there? I think you're needing some sunny days!

Anyhow, yes, I am familiar with that site, the demonstrator, and fairly familiar with that form. The problem with mentioning just "Paiho" is that in Okinawan "Hakutsuru" forms, the terms Hakucho, Paiho, Hakkaku, Hakutsuru, Hakufa, and Kakufa all refer to (usually) very similar forms.

The majority of "Hakutsuru" forms coming out of Okinawan and Japanese karate follow pretty closely with the techniques and structure of that form, which comes from nutso-ryu, and supposedly Gokenki (Wu that we discussed earlier).

This format is also similar to the forms coming from my weapons system branch, Matayoshi Kobudo, where there are some forms supposedly coming from Gokenki and / or another Chinese known as Kin-Gai Ryoshi.

Best Regards,

Russ

Eric said:

www.ee.kent.ac.uk/~cpb2/Dentokan/Goju_Ryu/

[Eric Ling]

Gojumaster said:

Eric,

Wow, that's a lot of grumpy faces!! Is it still raining there? I think you're needing some sunny days!

Wrong.

More Carlsberg or maybe even that poor excuse for a beer; Budweiser. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[MightBHooked]

Eric said:

Hi folks,

Got a link from a friend leading to a “PaiHo” kata video clip.

Viewed it several times and got to say that this is by far the most “Crane” kata I’ve seen.

Many recognizable techniques throughout the whole kata even though the kata itself is not relatable to any Chinese White Crane I’ve seen or do.

Anyone with more info on this kata?

Thanks.

Hi Eric,

The beginning looks a little like 'Kumemura Hakutsuru'

Regards,
Larry

[Eric Ling]

Hi Larry,

Sorry not acquainted with the name you mentioned.

Do you have any video of that kata?

The one that I saw is really laden with many familiar crane skills.

Except for the “embusen” which, to me, is archetypal Karate, the rest are really a page off the crane’s book.

Especially the use of the beak head sequences right down to the delivery.

Having said all that, I got to comment that these are NOT Whooping Crane’s skill set.

Of all the 12 Whooping Crane forms, it is tough for you to draw any parallels. None of the stances, for instance, is relatable to Whooping Crane. So even the “roots” are different.

So unless I am hearing that Whooping Crane is taught entirely different those days, I am left to conclude that the crane’s source is something else.

Personally, they look more Fukien Crane than anything else.

Thanks.

Eric

[Eric Ling]

Hey Evert,

Still waiting for you to open the “Saifa” and kung fu correlation topic.

Methinks, you should spend some time away from your Qilins, dragons and herbs with unpronounceable names.

Since you have roots in both Kung Fu and Karate, I just can’t wait to hear your take on this matter. Should be exciting and of definite interest to many members.

Thanks buddy. ;D ;D ;D

Eric

[Nataraya]

Saifa:

** Before I start giving any kind of analysis, nothing is meant against any system or practitioner. I do not know one of the teachers. Presented text are my personal opinion only. No offense!

I observed three versions of Saifa, as downloaded on Russ Smith his homepage. The form is different then the ones as practiced in Shaolin Kempo.
The opening of Tada is the way we open in TSK, only more with awareness and in slow motion. I notice no salute in the beginning nor end.
If Saifa should mean Lion Boxing, then I am afraid that the relation with Cantonese Lion Boxing, is far away. More about that later……

I am very impressed about Yanase his performance, I can read his body and its application, good explosions. I have a strong Lo Han feeling when I look closer to his performance. The division of the kicks is nice, and not Crane (Eric?). The ending part is typical Fukien Boxing, and NOT Cantonese Boxing.

Sometimes the stances were rather deep, and especially in Tada’s case I had some Shotokan sensations.

Robert Hui mentioned to me – on his forum – that “Sai” Fa could be a form seen as done with the weapon Sai, but also the same form without a Sai. The funny thing was, that I got VERY strong associations with a partnerset I learned in Pak Mei. It was the spear against the Sai. Suddenly I had the idea that I was doing a Pak Mei Pai ‘Saifa’ partner set. The backfist was a throwing out the Sai weapon. Etceteras. Okay, enough about this.

Conclusion: For me it is hard to judge, but my personal opinion is that it is not related to Lion Boxing. Also the way the performers shows this form was not Fujianese, Cantonese or Hakka- ish. But I must convince that my thoughts are still in the Hakka culture. Oh yes, some Lohan skills is being seen.

Evert.