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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 22, 2004 10:54:51 GMT -5
Do you do Chin Na in your training. How do you train your Chin Na ?
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Post by Gojumaster on Sept 22, 2004 21:55:56 GMT -5
Eric,
We train Chin-na in Goju-Ryu, through primarily two methods: exploration of the application of forms, or through push-hands.
We call our push-hands "kakie", and the basic version is very similar to that performed in, for example, Yang Taiji. This drill is practiced on multiple levels for various reasons:
-Training the root -Training the waist -Training for pushes and throws -Training footwork -Training Chin-na and anti-Chin-na
In utilizing push-hands for training Chin-na, the application of Chin-na is training particularly for entering and setting up the chin-na offensively at various stages of the push or defensively, while receiving a push.
Best Regards,
Russ
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Post by brad pitbull on Sept 23, 2004 0:24:46 GMT -5
in GoChorKun we get to train kim-na/chin na when doing 2 man routines,mostly chicken wings,arm bar vaiations etc..mostly the target is the elbow
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 24, 2004 18:49:15 GMT -5
A little background on Chin Na:
The Chin Na arts history can be traced back to the beginnings of the Chinese martial arts during the period of Bodhidarma and the 18 Lohan hand movements. However, credit is usually attributed to General Yueh Fei, who was a General during the Sung Dynasty (960-1279 AD)under Emperor Chao Kuang Yin. General Yueh Fei had created a style of martial arts that he called "Eagle Claw". He had developed this system from the external side of the Shao Lin Temple kung fu systems. General Fei's troops quickly gained a formidable reputation which brought Yueh Fei's Eagle Claw system acceptance within the martial community. Chin Na was a major part of the Eagle Claw system and has been attributed with the success of the system. For these reasons Chin Na's relevance and effectiveness was brought more to the forefront of the Chinese martial arts systems. From here the art disappeared from record until the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 AD) when a monk by the name of Li-Chuan developed a style that he called (and is still taught today) Fan Tzu Ien Jao. He developed this style by using a combination of the Eagle Claw style and the Fan Tzu style.
From there Fan Tzu Ien Jao was passed down from generation to generation. The Eagle Claw system was introduced into the Shanghai Chin Woo Association in 1924 when a Master of Fan Tzu Ien Jao named Chen Tzu-Cheng was invited to teach there. He taught there until 1929, afterwards a student whom had traveled with him, Lieu Men-Far stayed behind to become a famous Eagle Claw instructor within the Chin Woo Association until his death in 1964.
It is important to note that although Yueh Fei deserves credit for bringing this art to light, this was not the only system to practice and teach Chin Na techniques and principles. Yueh Fei learned his Chin Na from a Shao Lin Temple monk named Chou Ton. He learned both internal and external principles of the Chinese arts from Chou Ton. There have been many Chin Na techniques taught within the original Five Animal systems as well as Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Ba Gua from the beginning and still are.
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Wanderer
Full Member
Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Sept 24, 2004 23:34:12 GMT -5
Excellent posts. I first started learning Shaolin Qin Na Shou in the "70. When I studied Mantis, there were Gou Luo Cai Gua. There are a lot Mantis hooking (Diau) hand to start Qin Na in Tang Lang. I studied Tai Ji Qin Na in the '80. Actually Qin and Na are in every school of Wushu. Ba Ji Quan has a lot of Chan Si to start Qin Na. Tai Ji Qin Na is very unique. It is a whole new different set from other sort of common Qin Na in other schools. How to train. Let me just mention the Iron Claw (Teh Zhua Gong). Without using herbs or heavy beating of the hands, you actually want to loosen up all the ligaments in your fingers. The more loosened and flexible your fingers are, the more powerful the grip. I bend my wrist and fingers backward as far as I can several times to loosen the finger joints. I then start to grab 1#, 3#, 5# up to 25# bags with bean or flour. I toss the bag in the air and catch it with the other hand vice versa for 25 min. The second level, try to grab many chopsticks and then a staff with both hands and twist the opposite way. To practice several basic moves with a long staff helps the grabing and twisting ability of the hand. Lastly do some pushups to develop the strength with the upper arms. The arms reinforce you gripping power with your hands. That is the old way how they practiced Iron Claw. There are also dragon, tiger and eagle claws. In these, you have to practice pinching powers with your finger tips. On and on.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 30, 2004 14:24:49 GMT -5
Posted by: Wanderer Posted on: Sep 24th, 2004, 11:34pm Excellent posts.
I first started learning Shaolin Qin Na Shou in the "70. When I studied Mantis, there were Gou Luo Cai Gua. There are a lot Mantis hooking (Diau) hand to start Qin Na in Tang Lang.
I studied Tai Ji Qin Na in the '80.
Actually Qin and Na are in every school of Wushu. |
i am in agreement with Wanderer, Qin Na techniques and applications are a part of most Kung fu styles, even with Long Fist which is mostly kicking and hand strikes, i was also taught some Qin Na. It is a very valuable knowlege not just with knowing different grabs and takedowns, but more scientifically of how the body moves and what are the limits.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Oct 1, 2004 0:23:39 GMT -5
Andrew ni hao Welcoming you to the forum. Maybe you can tell us more about yourself? Cheers.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 4, 2004 10:33:11 GMT -5
Here are 2 Chin Na techniques taken from Pan Nam Wing Chun Bil Jee form. Love this stream of Wing Chun because they come across as very White Crane.
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Post by Gojumaster on Oct 4, 2004 11:12:30 GMT -5
I agree; I highly prefer their wooden dummy form over the Yip Man lineage form. Here are 2 Chin Na techniques taken from Pan Nam Wing Chun Bil Jee form. Love this stream of Wing Chun because they come across as very White Crane.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 4, 2004 18:17:16 GMT -5
whats unique between the 2 lineages?
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Post by Evert on Oct 28, 2004 3:33:25 GMT -5
Development,
Evolution is such a term which sounds awful in the ears of a traditionalist. That’s, I had much problems with that. The question is, is it really that negative? From early seventies I practice the martial arts intensively, and so was taught the Kum La (Qin Na) as done in Karate Do systems and Indonesian Kun Tao. In 1976 – 1980, specific Pak Mei skills were taught to me, and later my teacher taught me some of it as done in Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen.
In 1998 my advanced student Michel – from Indonesian origin - did follow several workshops of yang Jwing Ming. His arms are still in my memory. Heavily bruised, lots of pain, and high skilled! I asked him to teach two techniques to the students. It was clear that the analysis were in the slightest detail, perfect. As a physiotherapist, I could follow the logic, and the sensations were awful. I was faced with a high quality that I never reached. The effect was much clearer then what I did, or could reach. As a teacher of a wholistic system, this is painful too. I motivate him to continue this study and frequently teach it to the other students. One of the main goals is to improve the quality of my students. We are doing the same technique, only I will launch several techniques at one time, while my Sihing can control his opponent better then I can.
And so it happens that we are not closing our eyes for higher skills from outside our branch.
My teacher created [recently] workshops for his students: beginners, intermediate and advanced Qinna. A good and focused step to spend specific time on this important skill. So much to focus on in your lessons, and so much to cover. A lifetime …………
Kind regards,
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WuWei
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by WuWei on Nov 12, 2004 0:38:52 GMT -5
I studied Tai Ji Qin Na in the '80. Tai Ji Qin Na is very unique. It is a whole new different set from other sort of common Qin Na in other schools. Are you speaking of Na Mai, Jie Mo, or Bi Xue?
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
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Post by Hungfist on Nov 14, 2004 14:39:29 GMT -5
Isnt Chin Na the basis of other arts, like aikido and hapkido?
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Wanderer
Full Member
Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Nov 14, 2004 18:57:28 GMT -5
Yes; Qin and Na are part of a lot of schools of MA. Na Mai, Jie Mo or Bi Xue and most important of all is Bi Qi or causing obstruction of Qi flow. These are indeed used as part of Qin and Na techniques and strategy. Xiao Qin Na would be just Qin and Na only. Da Qin Na is coupled with striking or throws at the same time. Fan Qin Na is counter Qin Na.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 15, 2004 0:05:03 GMT -5
Isnt Chin Na the basis of other arts, like aikido and hapkido? Hi Hungfist, I will try to post as many different Chin-Na as possible from CFK - remember all techniques are culled from original 72 Chin Na methods - 36 big and 36 small. You might find your answer to your question. These Chin Na techniques are, at least, a couple of thousand years old. Besides the 72 "Chin Na Shou Fa", another lock/throw system is "Ching Yen Shi Ba Tie" or the 18 methods of Ching Yen throwing.
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