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Post by Nataraya on Oct 13, 2004 6:56:57 GMT -5
Quote: "......but still they will be better if performed by us. Pardon me for saying this".
Suhana, don't excuse yourself for thinking and saying this. I can't help, but can you define "better" for me. Depending upon your goals; fighting, self defence or spiritual development I think we are on a very interesting point.
So, please what do you mean with "better"?
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Oct 13, 2004 7:15:54 GMT -5
Evert ni hao Personally, learning martial arts is not just training the muscles, how to defeat other people. It's how you cultivate your characters, how you conquer yourself is much more important goal. It's more cultural thing. That's why I mentioned better. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 13, 2004 7:35:06 GMT -5
Mister,
Are you saying that Chinese martial artist are "better" cultivated then non chinese?
For me, it is about spiritual development. Like to refer to Mo Duk, are you saying that it is clear for you that non Chinese practitioners can't reach that level?
Very interesting thoughts and experience I must convince. You are a very special man Suhana, thank you for showing your wisdom and experience.
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by konghan on Oct 13, 2004 8:22:46 GMT -5
Mister, Are you saying that Chinese martial artist are "better" cultivated then non chinese? For me, it is about spiritual development. Like to refer to Mo Duk, are you saying that it is clear for you that non Chinese practitioners can't reach that level? Very interesting thoughts and experience I must convince. You are a very special man Suhana, thank you for showing your wisdom and experience. Kind regards, Evert. I think anybody can reach that level just as anybody can be preist, pastor & minister it all depends on the person's desire & commitment It just so happen that tcma has evolved around chinese culture that learning kung fu goes hand in hand in learning & adopting chinese culture & tradition something that some none chinese may not be ready to do. That is why that cultural essence in tcma is remove inorder to accomodate none chinese & when that happens tcma becomes incomplete & the person once reaches a certain level will realize the missing link, tcma in this case becomes souless.
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Fatman
Full Member
Large Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Fatman on Oct 13, 2004 18:51:11 GMT -5
When all is said and done, we all have two arms and two legs. Well, not all of us, but you know what I mean. We all bleed when we are cut. There is no reason why a non-Asian cannot perform the Chinese martial arts as well as an Asian. It may be harder for a Westerner to grasp the cutural aspect, but that can be overcome with time and understanding.
I am of Chinese ancestry but brought up in Australia. In a lot of ways, you could call me a banana - yellow on the outside but white on the inside. I have a friend who I call an egg, because he is white on the outside but yellow on the inside. We always joke that we were born into the wrong bodies. He is every bit as good at the Chinese martial arts as I am, if not better.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 13, 2004 19:58:12 GMT -5
well...i sometimes think that i am an african bushman...it happened when i saw 'the gods must be crazy'...now i am VERY good at what a bushman does...i even have kinky hair now...but skin is still yellow.
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Post by nothingness on Oct 13, 2004 21:19:52 GMT -5
Pardon me.
Language mastery requires the making of lingual neural paths that are full grown when one is 2 years old. Hence, anybody learning a language when s/he is more than 2 years old will not be able to imitate certain sounds unique to that language.
Learning martial arts, just in physical sense, requires years of cultivations that will not fully develop until one is fully grown.
Learning martial arts, in spiritual sense, requires searching for the Truth. The Truth is universal. One might be lucky enough to find this, other are not that lucky.
"For many of first will be the last."
Culture and martial arts are just bridges, tools.
In a race one might starts earlier or having an advanced start position. However, if one is not running fast enough, he might be finishing last.
Not all children of great grandmasters are great martial artists. Only those who are very motivated will make into a great grand master. Although a son of a great grandmaster is considered having an advanced start and position, a very dilligent and talented student can be better.
So, culture and family ties can be considered elements of advantages. These advantages might be positively and strongly correlated to the mastery. However, correlations do not imply causal-effect relationships.
This is not a personal attack and pardon my naivity.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 13, 2004 22:42:07 GMT -5
Okay, looks like this issue will stick around for a while.
Here is my 2 cents’:-
Kung Fu is difficult regardless.
Being Chinese gives you an upper hand – not arguing there. But to say that a Chinese doing kung fu must be good is flawed.
The point in question is of course not this. All things being equal, is a Chinese naturally better by virtues of cultural and language blood relationship?
The answer is yes and no. Yes, it makes the understanding of subtleties easier. No, because a non-Chinese can also attain this. Takes a more circuitous path maybe but still attainable.
Let me talk about real examples :-
I do Fuzhou Crane. Everything is taught in old-tongue Fuzhou. Concepts, principles and poems are all transmitted using Fuzhou dialect. And for the longest time, I struggled with this. My Fuzhou, sufficient, is not up to the mark. So along with studying Fuzhou Crane, I actually had to pep up my Fuzhou. To the point of reading in Fuzhou – something that was novel for I only read in Mandarin. Yet, I have seen non-Fuzhou, absolutely no-clue kind, taking up and shining in Fuzhou Crane.
Many friends who are in competitive sport karate in the 70s and 80s share the same experience. For a long time, the Japs reign in APUKO and WUKO tournaments. It is a psychological thing more than anything else. The Jap invented sport karate and therefore they must be good, so goes the popular thinking. Well many of my friends proved this wrong.
If you are familiar with this arena, you might have heard of names like Robert Tan Tiam Guan, Tan Ngee Doong, Loh Kong Wing and Ng Meng Sia.
All highly “feared” fighters even by the Japs.
Robert Tan, a very close friend, is a APUKO champ in kumite and kata, To get there, he need to beat many Japanese.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 13, 2004 23:11:35 GMT -5
well...i sometimes think that i am an african bushman...it happened when i saw 'the gods must be crazy'...now i am VERY good at what a bushman does...i even have kinky hair now...but skin is still yellow. This is getting serious ! First you're a dog. Then you became a "girlie boy". AC/DC according to the Feng Shui master. Now you're a Bushman...wow ! ;D ;D ;D Have you considered therapy help ? hehehe
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Post by nothingness on Oct 14, 2004 2:30:32 GMT -5
Sifu Ling, I will do a different approach, just to make the discussion interesting . The Japanese definitely has the upper-hand in Judo. However, there was a period while the European (French in particular) had a very strong dominance. The Japanese had to evolve the arts differently before they gain dominance again. A branch of Judo evolved into BJJ. This is another re-definition of the arts. However, your argument is right. In general, there are more native masters in the culture of the arts than the non-native. However, this is also a bias. More of the people in a culture is exposed to the arts, resulting in more interest that causes more mastery at the end. In another sense, the term "it is in the blood" can be defined as "more natural since more exposure, familiarity, and access to the knowledge." It is also true that an art is not culturally independent. It is created based on certain experiences and understanding of the culture (ethno-centricity). Again, pardon my naivity
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 14, 2004 2:55:14 GMT -5
Hey pitbull, To make up for all the nasty things I've said about you, I found a "Fukien Dog Kung Fu" clip for you. 164.58.65.137/wushu/ - this is Evert's tip. Download the FujianGuy.avi clip and you'll find a nice short clip of a young boy doing "Dog" kung fu. Actually it is all Suhana's fault...he started calling you names first.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 14, 2004 3:02:43 GMT -5
Hey nothingness, Isn't this the point - that others are able to dominate and force evolution upon your style ? I think your earlier statements are right. All flesh and bones underneath. Skin does'nt really matter. I fought Muay Thai boxers before and I tell you they hurt just the same. Maybe a higher threshold - but hit them right, you still knock them out.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 14, 2004 6:40:35 GMT -5
wow thanks! LOL now im confused...i thought awhile ago that i am a king and everybody bows down to me ;-) too much daydreaming i guess...
the race thing only goes as far as the cultural influence is...nothing much...some iranians learnt NCK from us...from the language barrier,they had a hard time than none chinese...specially understanding customs and some things like how important the salute is and the breathing etc(its not an islamic routine) but they did learn it evenrually...then using NCK to beat the stool out of some american bullies in the airport...
just like soccer, the brits will always have a upperhand and so will brzilians bec its the natural thing for them to do so,but china can and will do good at it in some 10 yrs when the football culture is already instilled in popular culture...its just like that...
one thing that bothers me is that many people in the west and some non chinese here dnt practice kungfu w a heart and with passion and vengeance...they just do so so kungfu...our dutch amigo here is an exception and i feel very proud of him. even told stories about him to ouyr elder and he is happy that a chinese cultural treasure is being cherished and loved by a non chinese.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 14, 2004 8:34:26 GMT -5
I like your example with the football sport. I do not know if you remember that the Dutch karate team beat the Japanese in Tokyo (!!!!!) with Sanda. I remeber it was 1974.
Okay, to promote my culture. Who of you do know how many times the Dutch win at the K1 tournament, lets say the last 12 years? Ever heard of fighters Peter van Aertsen {5 times], Ernesto Hoost [3 times] and last year champion Bonyassi [1 time]? If I remember it well, they won 9 times out of the last 12 years. Not bad from those stupid Flying Dutchmen, hahahahahaha.
No serious, within the next 100 years, the understanding of many martial arts are spread over the world. Any country or culture will be able to become a champion, or create an unique skill. Some on physical ground other on philosophical ground. Indeed, it is about commitment, eagerness and dedication. If you can find a coach with Heart, he is willing to explore the whole range between Yin and Yang. But the practitioner decides.
I travelled throughout the east and saw MANY participants. I was shocked to see that the Chinese were lazy and watch to modern medicine and sports. Unbelievable, living on a mountain full of ancinet wisdom, and neglect this. Very painful to see. And this is NOT only for martial arts, but also for Chinese Medicine,....... Now the realize this and create a kind of Disney parks every where under a nice Shaolin name. The hire a Western Chinese to run the club and propagate in the West that........ Money, money, money (Pink Floyd). The stupid thing of it all - and exactly what Eric is saying - they miss the boat AND...... will never get it back.
Is this a problem? No it isn't, because the message of the ancients will stay alive for a selected view. Selection is being made with cauciousness. Sound strange, but honest look to yourself in the mirror and realize that it is a life task, with [probably] an endconclusion that you never reach the top. PLease think then: It is about the process and not the end result. Contribute to your lineage because at the end you just enjoy the ride of your family vehicle.
Warm regards,
Evert.
Note: One more thing to throw some nice hot pepper in wounds. Do any of you heard about Christopher Schipper? He is a Sinologist, Taosit priest and professor hired by the Chinese government in Beijing. Christopher Schipper is the only man on Earth able to translate the Dao De Jing Volumes that are saved/ hidden in that city. The amount of Volumes are so big, that Christopher Schipper will be translating the rest of his Life. But he is the only one (still) able to understand and translate the old Chinese in modern Mandarin Chinese. One important note was made, the modern text may NOT be published for the outside world. Really they truly realize what they throwed away the last centuries, and try to work back..........
And so I can continue. But I need to say these words were not written to hurt anybody. More a reflection of what Nothingness, Konghan and some other colleagues did said in this thread.
Spiritual wisdom can't be meant for a special background ort culture. For me men like: Mahatma Gandhi and Mandela are great examples.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 14, 2004 9:08:36 GMT -5
Hi Pitbull and all other Chinese members of this forum,
Evert is not the only amigo with such thorough knowledge of CKF. Evert is exceptional, to me, because his love of the culture and history encircling CKF is just amazing. You folks just got to know him here whereas I’ve been talking to him for a while now. Some of the things that transpired among the 3 of us (Mr. White Crane Martin Watts is the other) will astound even hardcore Chinese king fu scholars. To be honest, Evert and Martin are simply fellow kung fu brothers. I never for once, perceive them as Dutch or Spanish. (I think Martin is Spanish, whatever).
We all write to each other kind of funny, English not being our 1st language, but we COMMUNICATE in the language of kung fu.
Sometimes nuances are all it takes. Which great Zen master was it who said; don’t let wisdom be buried in the words. Don’t look at the finger pointing but to the moon it pointed?
Kung Fu is a journey, it must be. Some of us start on square 1 and some maybe elsewhere. But really does it matters? We will meet someplace sometime. All paths lead to the same destination.
I always tell the 2 amigos, we will keep company for as long as possible. If not, we meet at the end.
This forum is, I hope, an extension of the 3 of us and the bond fastened by our common love of CKF.
So it is not about color, creed or politics. For real kung fu is really about looking inside. Pay to much attention to the outside and you’ll miss the point completely, in my humble opinion.
So being Chinese, I think it is like Pitbull said, we should all feel “proud” that non-Chinese are walking the Chinese path. It must be difficult for them. We should offer as much support as possible. It is both an honor and a privilege, again in my humble opinion.
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