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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 10, 2004 2:19:03 GMT -5
Hi everyone, Here is another style kung fu that might be interesting for all you San Chiem fans: Ngo Muay Koon or Wu Mei (Mandarin) quan. Wu Mei is the alleged teacher of Yim Wing Chun – the founder of Wing Chun Kung Fu. Wu Mei is also documented as one of the 5 escapees from Southern Shaolin during the Manchurian’s army attack. There is also a recorded Wu Mei in the White Crane family tree. A fifth generation student of Fang Chi Niang’s White Crane. There is hardly any way to determine which is which now. But this we do know:- Ngo Muay koon is another San Chiem centered kung fu – iron shirt San Chiem. Much of what they do could be mistaken for Eng Choon peho or even Ngo Chor. The late Tan Siew Koon (the old gentleman in the photos) was very active in the 70s and 80s in Singapore. He club was known as Leng Sai or Dragon Lion Kok Shu Kwan. Very close to my late Sifu.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 10, 2004 2:58:45 GMT -5
Hello all,
I love the photo's, this is the the exact expression players should show, IMHO. No fake, just the xpreseeion of accepting and killing (Sat).
I remember that my first thoughts were, Karate-isch, The way the Okinawans/ Japanese are testing there students. This touch my next question; is there some testing done in Chinese SaamTzien schools? Or was this an invention of non-Chinese?
Further, I think that the addition of "Iron Shirt" is an uneccessary addition, for Iron Wire Boxing surely. Because the main concept is sending energy to any spot/ area on the body. Depending upon Intent/ emotion you can create a bigger or smaller layer, accept light or extremely heavy blows.
Okay, I realize that the scale have many grey colors. The photo's above are clearly characterized as: very quick, direct, aggresive, powerful, explosive, and forceful. Yuo should have a strong rooting technique and the enrgy looks rather linear. When we turn 180 degrees we find the Ïron Bar wrapped in cotton". Still most of the concepts are the same, only the path is different.
My excuse for writing such a long reply. Like to hear what others think about - for instance - this version of Ng Mui Saam Tzien......
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 10, 2004 7:21:27 GMT -5
as for the expression(NCK,i dont know about others) there is a doctrine that we should bite our teeth and stiffen the neck...biting the teeth will avoid your jaw being dislocated...stiffening the neck so the vibrations wont hurt your brain etc...
thnaks for the interesting posts by the way...
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Post by pitbull on Oct 10, 2004 7:33:39 GMT -5
PS: it does look alot like tai chor,nck,peho and many sam chien oriented fujian arts...i wish that i could be in this level by 6 yrs of constant oractising...
by the way..is that ali?
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 10, 2004 7:40:12 GMT -5
Hi Pitbull,
Stiffening the neck and thorax region is pretty standard in Tai Chor also.
"Gar Gay Kin" and "Chaat Luk" or "joints power" is essential in most Tai Chor forms.
Even in Hockien Sao Lim, this is preached and practised. I think Nataraya does that in TSK too.
Yes, that is a young Ali in the photo.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 10, 2004 7:45:40 GMT -5
yeah...i think this is common amongst the hard southern fists guys like us..i think this is one main distinction that separates us from other kungfu...wow! he is actually ali? i admire ali very much...he has a genuine heart to help people(he went to iraq in 1991 to help the hostages) and he isnt racist at all...some of the very few...
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 10, 2004 9:34:42 GMT -5
Although - for me - Iron Wire Boxing is one of the younger brothers of Saam Tzien Kuen, I prefer talking from this direction. Also in Hakka styles, as mentioned by Eric Ling, the position of ther head, and the activity of jaw and teeth, play an ESSENTIAL role. In fact it is one of the powers that should be integrated, known in Cantonese as Ngaan Geng or Jaw power.
Simply said, the enrgy comes from the lower abdomen (Yiu Fok) and rises towards the arm. In case of breath and sound, the energy is channled by Chong Mai or central meridian. Then the energy needed to be manipulated to the left/ right or both sides. Tension in neck area (by clenching teeth/ jaw and sucking in the jaw], will direct the energy to one side. Ebergy will always fnd the path with the lower resistance. One of the first lesons in TCM is that blood and chi/ hei are connected like father and mother. Your eyes/ intent direct the energy to the spot you want to have it.
As discussed in Fa Jin thread, relaxation plays an important role too, and the knowledge WHEN to tense. This is a whole different story.....
For Mohammed Ali: I think he can better close his hands because his palm is of a novice level. I will ask if Eric will insert some nice impressions of my late grandmaster Lai Ng Sam .
regards,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 10, 2004 11:03:50 GMT -5
Text and Photos supplied by Evert (Nataraya). Lai Ng Sam (1927 - 1995). Lai Ng Sam was born in 1927 in Futshan, a village in Kwantung. His father was a herbal doctor and Mok Ga kung fu teacher. In his travels Lai Ng Sam’s father met Hung Yat Siu, a fellow herbal doctor/kung fu expert, in the village of Shen Tong. The two became good friends and together they earned money by selling herbs and giving kung fu demonstrations. When Lai Ng Sam was seven his father died. Because his mother was not able to raise all of her children on her own, Hung Yat Siu decided to adopt Lai Ng Sam. From that time on Hung taught Lai Ng Sam how to find herbs, make medicine from the herbs he collected, and also orthodox Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen. When the Japanese invaded China Hung Yat Siu joined the freedom fighters. Lai Ng Sam stayed at the "Big Buddha" temple while Hung was away. Hung Yat Siu was captured by the Japanese but was eventually able to escape with some help from the outside. Both Hung Yat Siu and Lai Ng Sam were brought to the "Eight Horse" monastery by the Zen monk Lao. They stayed at the temple for eight months. When Lai Ng Sam was 11, Hung Yat Siu brought him to the "Ching Lung" temple on Ng Toi mountain in Wunan province. There Hung Yat Siu became a monk and was given the name Lin Hung Sim Si. When the Japanese destroyed the temple, Lai Ng Sam and Hung Yat Siu (Lin Hung Sim Si), fled to Canton. There they stayed and trained at the famous "Hoi Tong" temple for two years. When Lai Ng Sam was 13 Hung Yat Siu accepted five new students, four male and one female. Hung Yat Siu taught them all Southern Siu Lam boxing. From 1943 to 1945 they remained at "Ching Chuk" temple in Kao Lien Shan (Nine Lotus Mountain, the location where the Southern Siu Lam temple was once located.) Because Hung Yat Siu’s visibility deteriorated he sent his students to other schools to exchange kung fu forms and techniques. When Mao Tse Tsung came to power in 1949, Hung Yat Siu (Lin Hung Sam Si) gave each student some money and told them to flee the country and escape the communists. The female student and two male students died during their attempt to escape. Lai Ng Sam managed to swim to Hong Kong despite two bullet wounds, one other kung fu brother managed to escape to Singapore and another remained in China. In the early 1950’s Lai Ng Sam was forced to compete in the illegal fights organized by the Triads. He had no money, food, or shelter. During this time he suffered injuries that would later cause problems with his martial arts training. When Lai Ng Sam met his wife he was already a herbal doctor, but it wasn’t enough to make a living so he took a job at an electricity company. He taught Hung Ga Kuen at the Japanese embassy and the YMCA. Finally he taught a few private students at Victoria Park. Lai Ng Sam was happily married and had eight daughters. In the last years of his life he contracted cancer and after a long fight, passed away in 1995. His last wish was that his knowledge of orthodox Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen be passed on to later generations. He also confirmed Geoff Hasbrouck as his official successor.
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Post by Gregory on Oct 10, 2004 17:59:27 GMT -5
Iron shirt is one of the training in NCK San Chien. It is not a high level skill. A beginner takes 4 months training in the right way will reach this stage. It can also protect the LP too. Mr Tan Siew Kun look fierce but actually he is a nice man. He was the singapore wushu coach examination committee member. When he judged the candidate from fujian martial art he always check on stiffening the neck. All his sons are training in san shou and lion, dragon dance. He passed away few years ago.
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Post by pitbull on Oct 10, 2004 18:13:58 GMT -5
wow! i feel sorry for him when i read the story...imagine teaching his beloved hung ga to the japanese(which he once fought). and also to stoop down as to join in these illegal matches...life is all about survival...i guess he was driven to a corner to have done these things :-(
iron body is basic. and so is iron forearm.
a question about hung ga: do you guys do iron forearm?
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Fatman
Full Member
Large Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Fatman on Oct 10, 2004 18:50:50 GMT -5
Hello all, ... I remember that my first thoughts were, Karate-isch, The way the Okinawans/ Japanese are testing there students. This touch my next question; is there some testing done in Chinese SaamTzien schools? Or was this an invention of non-Chinese? ... Kind regards, Evert. Ngor Chor Kun tests its forms as well, though not in the same way the Japanese schools appear to.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 11, 2004 7:28:55 GMT -5
I am not sure what you mean with Iron Forearm training. Conditioning is a part of our workouts, in which Da Saam Sing is the basic version. To speak in general, smashing the three stars forearm against each other. But we have more of such drills, known as Five, Seven and Nine Stars. In Nine Stars also the shoulders and Back region are integral part of the conditioning. Hung Kuen is well known about its Bridging qualities, some prefer to speak about mainly Gang Geng or Hard power. I deny such a statement, although I am fully aware that there are schools mainly using muscular force (Lik). Our branch does use softness to create extreme hard. Remember that ‘Pain’ is classified as emotion in tradition. It is part of our Four Feelings/ eight expressions. In that daylight you can understand my saying: “Da Saam Sing is a kind of psychological warfare”.
I will link a story with this explanation. In the past it was usual to visit schools and fight for the ‘rights’. But there are other way’s to fight a battle. Such a battle is Da Saam Sing. With this kind of test, you have an impression about ones skills/ drive, a beautiful contest to do, always ending in mutual respect. In fact our friend Martin experienced this recently in Yong Chun. He gained much respect from advanced practitioners because he showed perseverance and was not willing to stop. If I remember his words correctly, he said that they thought he was crazy. Just imagine that a Western with blond hair bruised their arm nicely. I can ensure you that Martin did a d**n good job! My student in America, use to have a nice battle with his friend Miguel. They launched four [full power] low kicks on each other legs and see if you still can stand and walk decently. Okay, I can understand that it sound crazy, but it is fun to do, especially the first steps.....
Is this what you are meaning with Iron Forearm? Then we have the Iron palm, which is a very boring practice of conditioning. But following the structure, then nothing can be wrong. Perseverance is the main problem, while the benefits are discussable.
In general, softness and relaxation are the biggest evils we are facing, in fact constantly. In every battle/ pain sensation, you use to answer with tension. Even a performance before the camera [or audience] will have a result on your explosions. But facts that you have to deal with. For us it is a fact that “softness” creates the Iron, as found in the Element of Water. Not for nothing the Element of Water is linked with the colour Black. The strongest and deadliest element there is......
Testing do have my interest, in relation with Sanzhan/ Saam Tziem. My knowledge and understanding reach not further then some footages of testing from Okinawan systems. Fatman, are you willing to shine some light about this, and eventually differences with the Japanese way?
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by Gary on Oct 11, 2004 9:09:28 GMT -5
Mr. Tan Siew Koon is a grandmaster of Ngo Mui. If I am not wrong, Mr. Tan learned his skill when he was in Hokchew or Hokchin in Fujian. His style of "Ki Ah Guan" is a common style in almost all martial arts in Fujian. In Ngo Cho Koon, we call it "Ho Bak Sai Chui", i.e. Tiger eyes, lion mouth. It's a way to train "Ying Qi Gong", the in word for what we used to call "Ngee Gang". If train correctly, you should be able to withstand punches like what Mr. Tan showed in the photos. But as Gregory pointed out, this is not really high level skill, it is the basic of almost all Fujian martial arts. Hi everyone, Here is another style kung fu that might be interesting for all you San Chiem fans: Ngo Muay Koon or Wu Mei (Mandarin) quan. Wu Mei is the alleged teacher of Yim Wing Chun ?the founder of Wing Chun Kung Fu. Wu Mei is also documented as one of the 5 escapees from Southern Shaolin during the Manchurian’s army attack. There is also a recorded Wu Mei in the White Crane family tree. A fifth generation student of Fang Chi Niang’s White Crane. There is hardly any way to determine which is which now. But this we do know:- Ngo Muay koon is another San Chiem centered kung fu ?iron shirt San Chiem. Much of what they do could be mistaken for Eng Choon peho or even Ngo Chor. The late Tan Siew Koon (the old gentleman in the photos) was very active in the 70s and 80s in Singapore. He club was known as Leng Sai or Dragon Lion Kok Shu Kwan. Very close to my late Sifu.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 11, 2004 10:03:23 GMT -5
Hi Gary,
According to my late Sifu Sia Mok Tai and even my Tai Chor Sifu Teo Choon Teck, the late Sifu Tan did acquired his kung fu in Fuzhou.
Personally, I think Ngo Mui Koon is another form of peho. The Fukien style. Parallels between the 2 are too many to be mere coincidences.
I was told that Anthony Wee. the publisher of the defunct "Bushido" magazine, was Sifu Tan's disciple.
He ran a club called "Shun Lin" at one time - know anything about this ?
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 11, 2004 10:11:05 GMT -5
My student in America, use to have a nice battle with his friend Miguel. They launched four [full power] low kicks on each other legs and see if you still can stand and walk decently. Okay, I can understand that it sound crazy, but it is fun to do, especially the first steps..... Evert. Ha, more evidence that you are really crazy, you crazzzy Dutch man. ;D ;D ;D
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