Siao Lim Koon

[Eric Ling]

I started my Kung Fu training in Siao Lim Koon.



My late Siao Lim Sifu Chong Beng Joo in a LoHan Koon Posture.




My Si Gong Venerable Sek Koh Sum in a LoHan Koon Posture

Anybody else from Siao Lim ?

[Suhana LIM]

Eric ni hao
I might be wrong, but your si kung, was he lived in Medan before? Cheers.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Suhana,

I think you are right. Ah Joo (everybody called Sifu Chong Ah Joo) told us that Si Gong taught Siao Lim in Indonesia and West Malaysia.

He finally settled down in Siong Lim Si, a Buddhist temple, which is a stone's throw away from where I lived as a little boy. I lived in Kim Keat Estate.

If you visit Siong Lim Si, you will find Ven.Sek's tomb in the temple. His personal chamber is now preserved as a visitors' attraction.

[Suhana LIM]

Eric ni hao
When I was still in secondary school, centuries ago , I have a friend who also trained in kungfu. He originally come from Medan (North Sumatera), when we exchanging information about the style, I remember he mentioned the same name as your Sikung's name.
Cheers.

[Eric Ling]

Ha Ha Ha Suhana,

You can't be that old - anyway more pix of Si Gong and Shiong Lim Si where I started my Wu Shu Tien Ya.

[Suhana LIM]

Eric ni hao
Oops, I think I sent the confusing info for you . When I said my friend mentioned about your sikung's name, it's not reffering as my friend's sifu. But his arts is from your sikung lineage as well. Clear now?

Many old sifus in their later chapters follow and cultivate the spiritual things, this shown how we cannot seperate martial art and characters cultivations. Cheers.

[Eric Ling]

shaolim said:

Hi there,

My name is Simon and I'm from Holland.
Remember me Eric? We emailed some time at the time of Kungfu Galaxy.

Anyways, I also practice the Siao Lim (or Sao Lim)

Hey Simon,

Yes, I remember you. In fact Martin (Watts) and I were talking about you a while back.

How is your Siao Lim school over there?

Sadly, Si-Gung's Siao Lim is diminishing in Singapore. I was back there recently and was trying to locate Wang Mei Ping, one of my Nanyang's brothers. He got a lot of the old stuff from Nanyang. Was told that he had relocated somewhere else too.

Most of Ah Joo's boys are no longer active.....

Looks like you guys are the ones carrying the tourch now. I might be traveling to Penang to look out Datuk Png sometimes next month.

A quick question;

You guys do the Lotus or "Lian Huay" series?

Anyway, a warm welcome to you my Siao Lim brother.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Simon,

Some more SiaoLim pictures for you.

The first is a very young Ah Joo playing with some karate-ka in Singapore.

The second set shows Sifu Tan Choo Seng – a second generation SiaoLim Sifu. Sifu Tan, who ran a school called “Hua Tiong” is a very versatile teacher. Besides SiaoLim, he was also taught Hsing Yi and Northern Kung Fu by the late Tan Geok Ho.

Familiar with Sebastian Soo? The founder of “Hoppono Kempo” later renamed “Northern Shaolin”, Sebastian was taught by Sifu Tan.

Last I heard, Sifu Tan is no longer teaching SiaoLim. I was told that he is now restoring old temples in Johor West Malaysia.

[Eric Ling]

shaolim said:

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the pictures. Picture with Ah Joo is late Siao Lim Sifu Chong Beng Joo, right?

The second set with Sifu Tan Choo Seng looks intresting. What is his lineage may I ask?

I'm not familiar with Sebastian Soo, sorry. Wasn't he on the Galaxy site as well?

Can I post pictures as well, or only moderators?

Best wishes,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Go ahead post your pictures.

Yes Ah Joo is Sifu Chong.
I need to confirm Sifu Tan's lneage but the postures you see are mainly from Yi Ki Muay or Yi Chi Mei (Mandarin).

Sebastian was indeed in kung fu galaxy. He was very good in his Lohan and monkey kung fu.

Lost touch with him and I even heard a rumour that he passed away recently.

Simon, when I teach, I usually do SiaoLim before moving my students onto Tai Chor and my White Crane.

SiaoLim, being my first style kung fu, has a very special place in my heart.

Thanks.

[Eric Ling]

Hey Simon,

Nice posture.

Got 2 more for you.

#1- Reason why Ah Joo was given the nickname "Iron Fist". His hands were able to punch and slice through red bricks easy! Besides SiaoLim Lohan/Lotus, Ah Joo was one of the very few to be personally trained by Si-Gung in "iron palm".

#2 - One of Ah Joo senior boys breaking a red brick with a round kick.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Simon,

First, please allow me to express this; it is really good to have a fellow SiaoLim family member on-board.

SiaoLim has always enthralled me for many reasons and top of which must be the extraordinary life of Si-Gung Sek.

A bona-fide warrior monk from the old Shaolin line – stuff that you only read in Kung Fu novels! Sadly, I have never met him in person; he passed on when I was only 2 years old. But the Shuang Lin Si he built is only a stone-throw away from where I lived as a small boy in Toa Payoh Singapore.

Some of the amazing stories that I’ve heard about him. These are mainly recounted by my Sifu and other SiaoLim brothers:-

• Si-Gung’s Singapore was still administered by the British, the colonial masters. He was accused of housing “triads” in his temple by a high-ranking British government officer. Unable to communicate in English, an interpreter was present during this. Si-Gung got so mad that he slapped the marble table where they were all seated and cracked it with one hit. The Chinese interpreter was soon spreading this incidence and the temple was thronged with folks seeking to learn Kung Fu. Well, you must know that Si-Gung kept to the old ways and took only 18 disciples. Ah Joo was his close-door disciple.
• There was another occurrence reported in the now defunct newspaper called “New Nation”. A reporter, who was in the vicinity, reported that he witness a monk leaping over the 12 ft temple wall. According to Ah Joo, Si-Gung was fond of doing this and he also slept on temple roof at night. An old habit from the old Shaolin Temple in China where they guard the temple premises by monitoring from roof tops.
• According to my dad who knew him briefly, Si-Gung’s Kung Fu was so fast that most times you can’t even make out what he is doing. My dad, a Whooping Crane boxer, used to say that he has never seen anybody else do Lohan with Si-Gung’s intensity. Looking at Ah Joo’s Lohan, I can imagine how good S-Gung must have been. When Ah Joo is doing his Lohan’s focus, none of us want to get too near. He looked like a super-charged bull going at 100 miles/hour! And the way Ah Joo destroyed red bricks; he just walk up to the brick and “bam”, the brick just fly into halves. This is the Lohan’s sting that you often read about.

Another thing that has always puzzled me is what Si-Gung taught. No 2 disciples got the same thing. Except for maybe 3 standard forms or drills, the rest vary.

The forms:-

1. Yi Ki Muay or One Blossom Twig.
2. Har San Hor or Tiger Descending Mountain.
3. Chi Mi Koon or Shaolin “Chi Mi” cudgel.
4. 2 men Yi Ki Muay.
5. LoHan.

I have in my collection videos of demonstrations by the other SiaoLim schools like Siao Teck San, Siao Tiong San and even some of the second generations SiaoLim schools and they all do different forms.

Take for instance your Fok Fu LoHan. I’ve seen this done by Datuk Png group in Penang and got to tell you that it is completely different from Ah Joo’s Lohan.

I noticed your Yi Ki Muay’s posture with the double spear hands. You are doing a newer version or what we call “Sin Muay” or “New Blossom”.

Over the years, I have more or less compiled a small portion of SiaoLim forms. No way complete but just a small slice:-

1. Yi Ki Muay
2. Har San Hor
3. Tang Lan Koon or Bronze Men Fist.
4. Lien Huay Kar or Lotus Circling.
5. Lohan 108 – this form is taught in 3 sets, the small, big and “emotions” Lohan.
6. Ngor Heng Koon or 5 animal forms. This is a very complicated series not taught in one form like HungGar. Instead the 5 animals are taught in different permutations. For instance, Datuk Png’s “Crane” is one of a series of SiaoLim’s crane. I was taught “Shiong Tien Hok” or “Ascending Sky Crane” by Si-Chaik Kheng Huan. Siao Teck San do many different 5 animals combination. I’ve seen their Tiger-Crane, Tiger-Dragon, Tiger-Leopard etc etc.
7. Kao Kun or Monkey Boxing. Siao Tiong’s Sifu Low is probably the only one who can do the entire Kao Kun syllabus. And for folks who are only familiar with Northern Monkey, SiaoLim’s Kao Kun is another world waiting to be explored!

Simon, I know that different SiaoLim Sifus were given different things from Si-Gung and there were efforts to streamline SiaoLim’s syllabus. Unfortunately, most of these flopped.

Like I mentioned I am trying to locate a brother, Huang Mei Ping, who was involved in the mainland Shaolin committee project to re-organize Shaolin syllabus.

Huang is the top student of Kheng Huan Si-Chaik and he was also privately taught by Tien Kaw Si-Chaik. Tien Kaw Si-Chaik was a very reserved man who lived in Shaung Lin Si most of his life looking after “Nanyang SiaoLim”.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

Are the 5 animals within Shaolin the same as in Hung Gar, that is, Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Snake and Dragon? Also, according to what you said, the 5 animals have 5 different forms instead of 1 entire form as in Hung Gar, I think this would be one of the links between Hung Gar and Shaolin, as village Hung Gar (that has not been passed down through the Wong Fei Hong lineage) do the 5 animals in separate forms, however, I have heard of an Ng Ying Kuen from Shaolin which is the 5 animals form. This really confuses me, as village Hung Gar should be less modified than WFH Hung Gar, and they do the 5 animals in 5 different forms. Is this correct? Is the Ng Ying Kuen within WFH Hung Gar the original Shaolin form or has it been modified to contain all 5 animals within the 1 form?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hey Tze Hou,

Good to hear from you again.

Okay 5 animals forms – another “convoluted” subject matter IMHO.

Which version is the earliest?

• Northern Shaolin, believed by many to be the first Shaolin, does a “Wu Xing Ba Fa” or “5 Animals 8 Methods” form. The same 5 animals mentioned and almost the same characteristics when compared to its Southern counterpart.
• SiaoLim Ngor Heng is really more of a series as opposed to just one form. Like I said, done in all sort of permutations as separate forms. So you have Tiger-Crane, Dragon-Crane etc etc…Frankly, sometimes I think of it as a “pai” rather than just a subset.
• In Fukien, you also find different animal styles Kung Fu. Besides the 5 animals, you also find the monkey, rooster, lion and even the dog etc..
• Cantonese 5 animals is another cloudy area. Besides Hung Gar, you also find 5 animals in styles as diverse as Lama White Crane; Choy Li Fut etc…Lama White Crane does a Big and a Small 5 Animals form. One interesting style that might prove to be the link between Fukien Shaolin and Cantonese 5 Animals is probably “Siu Lam Hung Kuen” or “Shaolin Red Fist”. They do very apparent 5 animals that is a cut different from most other Cantonese 5 animals.

Village Hung Gar perhaps shows more Fukien 5 Animals’ distinctiveness.

Personally, I find WFH’s line of Hung Gar too “clean”.

Evert would tell you it lacks the “primitiveness” of Fukien/Hakka fighting skills.

I feel the same.

I will try and post some relevant pictures.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

From reading the discussions on this forum regarding the Hakka arts, I gather that the Hakka arts have more of a "destructive" feel about them, that is they are more kill oriented. Is this correct?

As I am not exposed enough to styles which do specific animal forms, I have no way of making a comparison. I too, feel that the original Hung Gar would have had 5 different animal forms which have been combined and streamlined, probably causing them to lose some of their specific and individual flavours?

One very interesting point which I myself do not understand. I recently ran into an elderly gentleman who is a Hung Gar exponent, and he talks of Ng Ying Kuen and Ng Hang Kuen but not of Sup Ying Kuen. He splits the animals and elements up and when I referred to Sup Ying Kuen, he talks rather of them as separate forms. Is this a way of preserving the old ways? Perhaps I would need more time to talk with him to understand his thinking.

I will probably come away with even more questions, and I hope that you guys will be patient with me as I seek the answers.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi Tze Hou,

Before we proceed further in our discussion, let me clear a couple of things:-

• This forum is in no way, to bash martial art styles or personalities. We all come from varied styles and being human, we are understandably prejudiced and chauvinistic at times. Personally, I think this is tolerable but still there must be out-of-bound markers and certain amount of restraint to ensure friendly exchanges. Humbly, I see myself playing this role of refereeing.
• When I described WFH’s Hung Gar as too “clean”, I did not mean, in any way, to demean. I am ill- qualified to make any worthy judgment on Hung Gar considering that my knowledge here is so shallow. “Clean” is my way of saying very “structured”. Other Hung Gar lines show more “rawness”. Having said that, I am not stating that one is superior to the other. In fact, I feel the same with regards to Fukien/Fuzhou White Crane and Okinawa/Japanese Karate. Fukien White Crane and Okinawa Karate do strike me as more “raw” than their respective counterparts. Or to quote Martin Watts; ‘the further from the source, the more complex it becomes”.

Tze Hou, I don’t want you to look for the “perfect” style – it doesn’t exist!

Do what you do extremely well is all the “perfection” you ever need.

This forum is about sharing so that we don’t have to repeat mistakes that other before us went through.

Evert is fond of saying there are many ways to the top.

Me, I wish I never reach the top!

Having too much along the way.