Wanderer
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Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Sept 20, 2004 11:37:24 GMT -5
Song's first emperor summaried all the fighting methods at the time and created Tai Tzu Chan Quan.
General Han Tong summaried Tong Bei Quan.
TZCQ was used to train Ming's soldiers.
TZCQ is considered the forefather of all long Boxing.
Mantis is evolved from TZCQ (father) and Tong Bei (mother).
Tai Ji Quan also evolved from TZCQ.
What school of Chan Quan do you practice?
What is the history?
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Wanderer
Full Member
Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Sept 20, 2004 11:46:53 GMT -5
When I was in high school, we studied Mantis in the Kuo Shu club. We had teachers that teach 7*. Seven stars were very popular in Taiwan and the rest of the world. Our teachers were from Shan Dong. There were only a few that teaches Liu He (six harmonies). Before I studied Mantis, I was asked to study TZCQ and Tong Bei first. I was told it is very important to study both. If I am to learn Chan Quan or Mantis well. Liu He Tang Lang (Mantis) was created by Wei De Lin. He used the Mantis as the core. He added Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Tong Bei, Tai Ji and Pi Gua. Thus the name is Liu He Tang Lang. LHTL is considered soft or internal (Ruan Tang Lang). Seven stars is considered hard or external (Yin Tang Lang).  |
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 20, 2004 21:12:26 GMT -5
Hi Wanderer,
Got a couple of questions for you :-
1. Northern Tai Tzu and Southern Tai Tzu - both claim the same starter. And yet, you cannot find 2 more diverse styles - your take on this ?
2. Seven Stars - in my training days, I was taught that this refers to the 7 body weapons.
- the head
- the shoulders
- the elbows
- the hands
- the waist
- the knees
- the legs
We talking the same thing here ?
3. Tong Bei - White Ape Kung Fu ? I have some friends here in Asia who are Lama White Crane exponents. They talked about links between the 2 systems - your views ?
Thanks.
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Wanderer
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Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Sept 20, 2004 22:14:53 GMT -5
1) I do not know the southern Tai Tzu Quan. I knew about 5 ancestors from Fu Jian Shaolin.
I cannot answer the differences.
2) Yes. You are right.
Li Quen San was from Lai Yang Shan Dong. He passed away in Taiwan. He was the chair of Lai Yang Kou Shu Kwang. His nickname was the first Qian of Shan Dong. He and Wang Song Ting were both great teachers of seven star Mantis in Taiwan.
Seven star has the hand method (Sou Fa) and step method (Bu Fa).
The line linked from the head, shoulder, elbow and the hand is like that of seven stars aligned.
The line linked form body, waist, knee and the foot is like that of 7 stars aligned.
There is also a posture (Shi) of 7 stars.
Thus the name is 7 stars.
3) I do not know Lama enough to comment on the link. However, Tong Bei was indigineous in Northern China. Over the years, there were more additions and theories added. Tong Bei probably is the best known and more completely documented Wushu. In contrast, there are a lot of missing links in other schools of Wushu.
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Wanderer
Full Member
Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Sept 27, 2004 19:47:36 GMT -5
Tai Tzu Chan Quan are in sections (Jie).
It is a one big routine in sections.
Tong Bei was thought to be practiced since the Warring States period (Zhan Kuo Shi Dai).
General Han Tong was undefeated with Tong Bei.
It is consisted of 5 big palms. All other moves evolve from these 5 palms. There are a lot of books and classics. There also poems with the methods and apps. I used to recite them in the "70.
Mantis was created by Wang Lang. He went to study In Shaolin. He was defeated by his classmate all the time. One day he saw a mantis fighting a bug. He studied the methods and created the Tang Lang Quan.
Tai Ji Quan was created by retired general Chen Wang Ting.
This is a super short version of the history.
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Post by SouthernMonkey on Sept 29, 2004 0:02:06 GMT -5
"1. Northern Tai Tzu and Southern Tai Tzu - both claim the same starter. And yet, you cannot find 2 more diverse styles "
Actually, its really more than 2. There is a very good documentary from Shaolin Inc. productions about the various branches of TZCC.
Most credit Sung tai jow as the ulimate source but they do trace their own particular system to the time period which its was developed in, hence, Early northern dynasty or southern dynasty. Yueh fei, etc. The dynasty lasted roughly from 960 to 1279 A.D. Thats a long time for its influence to spread and take shape into its many permutations.
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 29, 2004 2:02:26 GMT -5
Hi SouthernMonkey,
Welcome to our humble family.
As a custom, I always ask for a bit of background info – hope you don’t mind, like to keep this conference like a family thingy.
Yes Northern and Southern Tai Chor are really divergent. Except for the moniker and history crediting “Song Tai Chu”, the 2 arts are as different as Northern and Southern.
It is more or less the formula of this forum to look beyond techniques and to the principles.
I should have the written “Boxing Doctrine” of Southern Tai Zhu somewhere and hopefully post it.
Do you have the Northern Doctrines?
Looking forward to understand Tai Zhu more.
Thank you.
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Post by SergeTk on Nov 7, 2004 23:26:52 GMT -5
Song's first emperor summaried all the fighting methods at the time and created Tai Tzu Chan Quan. General Han Tong summaried Tong Bei Quan. TZCQ was used to train Ming's soldiers. TZCQ is considered the forefather of all long Boxing. Mantis is evolved from TZCQ (father) and Tong Bei (mother). Tai Ji Quan also evolved from TZCQ. What school of Chan Quan do you practice? What is the history? Tai Ji Quan evolved from WuJi , in fact some style still name WuJi as the highest level of Tai Ji that can be attained by TaiJi practitioner |
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 23, 2004 6:41:57 GMT -5
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Post by pitbull on Nov 23, 2004 17:39:43 GMT -5
i think we should have pics of the southern taizu as well
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Post by Gojumaster on Nov 23, 2004 18:40:34 GMT -5
Hey pitbull, that was subtle... Well, I don't have any pics of S. Tai Tzu, but I do have some video of Liao Wu-Chang and his students doing some stuff. Give me a little time and I'll make it available to the group. i think we should have pics of the southern taizu as well |
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Post by pitbull on Nov 23, 2004 18:49:41 GMT -5
cool! thanks! :-)
im sure ill be seeing authentic southern taizu this dec and ill catch it w my new cheap-as$ camcorder(that is if the batteries dont die out on me)...problem is i dont know where to have my files hosted since,im sure they will be BIG.
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Post by Gojumaster on Nov 23, 2004 19:28:32 GMT -5
Hosting big files isn't a problem. I have my own server. cool! thanks! :-) im sure ill be seeing authentic southern taizu this dec and ill catch it w my new cheap-as$ camcorder(that is if the batteries dont die out on me)...problem is i dont know where to have my files hosted since,im sure they will be BIG. |
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Post by Gojumaster on Nov 25, 2004 9:42:59 GMT -5
Ok, guys.
I have posted to my site the following:
From Evert:
-Hu Quan San Zhan pics
-Kakufa pics - from Gojukensha, demonstrated by Habersetzer
From me:
-Taizu Chang Quan, original pics
-Taizu Chang Quan, other pics from a different book
-S. Taizu form (video), posted on the internet by John Wang
-Gou Quan San Zhan pics
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 25, 2004 9:48:47 GMT -5
Evert, I really think you should send some of the "inner' stuff to Russ.
I know I will be sending him my stuff once they are ready.
Here is one Karate man with his head,and more importantly his heart, in the right place.
You owe me , Russ. (if Evert is convinced off course.)
Life is short and Kung Fu belongs to the world and all that sh*t blah blah blah...
Time for Carlsberg.
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