Hung Gar Techniques.

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Hi Eric.

We do a Fire punch as a vertical punch too. Sei Ping Ma twist into forward stance, while still facing and punching to the Sei Ping Ma's front, not the forward stance front. Same thing?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hi Tze Hou,

I was planning on starting on another technique for discussion but looks like you cranked the wheel already.

Your technique sounds like "Drawing fist from under sleeves".

This is to avoid by shifting to left/right and punching as fast as possible to opponent's body.

That is why the punch is vertical - supposedly a faster than the twisting punch. The punch is also meant to be shorter. This is really about letting your opponent advance and then you shift and counterpunch.

The name “Drawing fist from under sleeves” has a few connotations.

1. It is meant to be hidden. Remember when this was designed, men folk in China were wearing “tang chuan” with long and big-mouth sleeves. So simply put, when your opponent is busy attacking you, you counterattack in that same time window. This is an expression of “yi kung wei shou” (phonetic).My hanyu pinyin is really rusty.
2. Also indicating where to hit. Under opponent’s arm. In “gung li” we say when you extend you’re spending and this empties the side of the body you are using. Now this is the place best for counterstriking or in Tai Chi’s case to fa-jin into.

I don’t have the poem with me but if I remember correctly, the above is mentioned.

Fire is mainly about speed, like sparking. Or at least that was how I was taught. So vertical punching is a frequent technique in the expression of fire element.

Lohan’s “Presenting Wine” comes in a few manners.

The one we spoke about earlier is one. The raising of the knee is to block and lead opponent into the position for you to punch. There is a very interesting variation of this technique in Tai Chor’s Lohan.

Picture this:-

Opponent kick you and you raise you knee to block and scoop his leg using your foot curled in like a hook. You then lead him forward to your side and then you kneel into his leg. As he is struggling to balance, you punch him with the vertical punch.

So Tai Chor’s version starts with the knee raised and then go into a “riding dragon” stance to do the punching.

[essence]

Eric said:

I was planning on starting on another technique for discussion but looks like you cranked the wheel already.

Your technique sounds like "Drawing fist from under sleeves".

This is to avoid by shifting to left/right and punching as fast as possible to opponent's body.

2. Also indicating where to hit. Under opponent’s arm. In “gung li” we say when you extend you’re spending and this empties the side of the body you are using. Now this is the place best for counterstriking or in Tai Chi’s case to fa-jin into.

Hi Eric.

That is another perspective to it. In all honesty, I have never looked at the shifting left/right as an avoidance to the opponent's attack, but you have again shown me another use for the technique. I have always looked at the stance transition as a means to generate power only.

It is done very fast, aimed at the chanced opening or to meet the opponent head on while he is charging you down.

My Sifu explains the emptying of the side of the body as the opening of a window, dividing the body up into different windows. He says to issue an attack, you open a window which you should close as soon as possible. In this instance, after the attack is issued, close by coming back into Sei Ping Ma.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[essence]

Good day everybody.

Another Hung Gar technique, something which I experienced was hard to counter today and can have devastating effects.

Soy Long Pow Choy (Water Wave Punch)

In Sei Ping Ma, side facing opponent (use left side in this instance), left hand performs a vertical back fist to block/clear path. Twist from Sei Ping Ma into forward stance to face opponent, while swinging right hand upwards to under the chin.

My Sihing "attacked" me with one today when I was not in the mental state to anticipate an attack, and I got clocked at the base of my skull. What distracted me mostly was the initial back fist which I thought was his attack and I attempted to block it, but he followed through with the swinging Water attack which hit me and I still have a headache at the moment from about 4 hours ago.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Gojumaster]

Eric,

The source of the form, Paiku (White Tiger) is the style called, "Ryuei-Ryu". This system supposedly stems from the mythical "Ryuruko" (supposedly the same source as Goju-Ryu) who some believe is Xie.

See my page here for the Chinese chars:
www.goju-ryu.info/Default.aspx?tabid=41

Eric said:

Russ, the Paiku form in your library – what is the source?

This is going to sound so funny; EVERY TECHNIQUE (except maybe the high Yoko-geri) is from Fukien Siao Lim.

The block and kick in one go / kneel and rise to block and kick / double single-knuckle punch is Shao Lim Lohan.

Why do I get the feeling that we are all looking at the same one big picture.

Maybe, each of us is just too myopic to see the whole thing.
This forum, hopefully, would break down walls and allow us the full view.

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day everybody.

Another Hung Gar technique, something which I experienced was hard to counter today and can have devastating effects.

Soy Long Pow Choy (Water Wave Punch)

In Sei Ping Ma, side facing opponent (use left side in this instance), left hand performs a vertical back fist to block/clear path. Twist from Sei Ping Ma into forward stance to face opponent, while swinging right hand upwards to under the chin.

My Sihing "attacked" me with one today when I was not in the mental state to anticipate an attack, and I got clocked at the base of my skull. What distracted me mostly was the initial back fist which I thought was his attack and I attempted to block it, but he followed through with the swinging Water attack which hit me and I still have a headache at the moment from about 4 hours ago.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hi Tze Hou and everybody,

Okay the technique was taught to me as “Throwing ball into the waves”. This is a techniques that is common to Lama Pai, Hop Gar and even Choy Li Fut. Even some Fukien styles do this but with a slightly different texture.

The differences are:-

In your case, you set off this technique with a vertical hammer and then do a rising/lifting fist with opposite hand. Your Si-Hing did a “alerting the east, attacking the west” deception-type application.

This is one of the applications. The other would be smashing down on an incoming upper/middle gate attack with one hand and lifting the other hand into opponent’s chin. You are doing this at his outer gate. Again this a bridge breaking and counter attack move rolled into one. In this case, you’re attempting to break at the elbow.

The other Cantonese styles like Hop Gar / Pak Hok and Lama do this technique with a full upward swing but with the inside of the fist for contact. Kind of like an uppercut but with hand stretched to the back and swinging all the way until fist is above the head. “Pow Choy” is the more common name in this case.

This is one of the techniques that make these guys so devastating. When they launch their attacks, it’s usually in a flurry of up, down, diagonal and straight swinging smashes. And in CLF’s case, there is always the “Chaap” (leopard fist) to worry about during all that swinging.

I have always likened this to facing a good TKD player. You know, they will be “probing” with a front kick and then go into some kind of hatchet kick & spinning back kick etc etc…<br>
Except that these guys have more control using their hands.

Fuzhou Crane has got this same technique/concept of “bridge breaking” that is really one of a kind. I will show you when we meet.

Thanks.

[Eric Ling]

Gojumaster said:

Eric,

The source of the form, Paiku (White Tiger) is the style called, "Ryuei-Ryu". This system supposedly stems from the mythical "Ryuruko" (supposedly the same source as Goju-Ryu) who some believe is Xie.

See my page here for the Chinese chars:
www.goju-ryu.info/Default.aspx?tabid=41

Thank you Russ.

Yes I knew it is from Ryuei-ryu but not the RyuRuko connection.

BTW, did you know that the Kanji of Ryuei has got a Chinese family name?

Ryuei = Liu Wei in Mandarin.

Liu is Lau in Cantonese as in Hung,Lau,Choy,Li and Mok – the 5 major Cantonese style Kung Fu.

This is the same Liu in Gordon Liu’s name – the White Eyebrow guy in “Kill Bill 2”.

Wei = defender or protector in Mandarin.

So at face value, the name Ryuei could be taken as saying “Defenders from the Liu family”?

Be kind, I am only playing with words here.

Also, I read somewhere that RyuRoKo could be Loo Liu Ke in Mandarin??

This is supposed to mean the 6th brother of the Loo family.

Somewhere else, I also read that it is more Liu Liu (6) ke.

This,now, refers to the 6th brother of the Liu family.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

I never saw this other application for the technique (using the backfist as a distraction) until I got hit by it, so in a way, I am thankful that I did get hit.

My Sifu says that the Soy Long Pow Choy is hard to counter if the backfist has cleared and the opponent is into the upswinging hit. You could issue a cross block to try and stop the fist, but the opponent has strength coming from the transition of the stance plus the hand's momentum which started its swing way back, making it highly possible that the fist will still meet its target.

He did offer me the counter of a Crane technique, which needs to be timed perfectly. Also, you could lean back out of reach of the fist, but this puts you off your centre compromising another counter should the opponent issue another attack at, say, the legs.

One of the reasons which someone told me that Hung Gar is devastating is because we swing our attacks from long range, close in, then issue our finishing short range attacks, exactly how you described it as well.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi Tze Hou,

Let's discuss more swords on Hua San.

All the "cranes" techniques in Fu-Hok.

You go first.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

Unfortunately, I have not started this form yet and is still quite a way off. However, my Sifu has drilled us in some Crane techniques before. There is a combination which he made us do recently, allow me to describe it.

Drill:

While in Sei Ping Ma facing the front, turn into forward stance to the left while striking out with the Crane's wing with the right hand. Come back into Sei Ping Ma, turn into forward stance to the right and strike out with the Crane's wing with the left hand.

Coming back into Sei Ping Ma again, turn into forward stance to the left issuing a punch with the right hand. Again, returning to Sei Ping Ma, come into Gum Gai (Golden Chicken), raising left leg, use Crane's wings to clear in front of you while issuing a kick, I have been taught this as the Mo Ying Keurk (Wu Ying Jiao).

After the kick, come back into Sei Ping Ma, turn to the right and issue a punch downwards.

Hypothetical Application:

When the punch comes, yield the space by turning into forward stance allowing opponent to punch the air beside your head. This will allow you to issue a Crane wing strike to the opponent's side of head/face/throat area, which is repeated again on the other side. The following punch is vertical punch to the solar plexus, aimed at upsetting the heart by projecting the fist in and upwards on contact.

Coming into Gum Gai, the Crane's wings are used to clear a hold on your collar or as a form of distraction while you issue a kick into the groin/bladder/knee of the opponent.

Finally, to ground the opponent, the last punch is a horizontal/45 degree punch into the bladder area which is projected in and downwards on contact to cause the opponent to fall.

I am pretty sure the Crane wing techniques are found in Fu Hock as is the kick. Please excuse my limited knowledge as I am but a seedling in the Hung Family system.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi folks,

Evert has kindly sent a bunch of scans for our discussion in this thread. Thanks Evert.



The poem, roughly translated :-

Throwing ball from waves, 5 element hand,
Hit opponent's joint, do not hold back li (power),
To launch this, courage goes first,
Strong attack hitting hard, don't look back.

Tze Hou, the key is in the second line. Joints hitting.

[Eric Ling]

More scans from Evert.

Crane techniques to facilitate discussion.

[essence]

Good day Evert and Eric.

Thank you guys so much for that Soy Long Pow Choy poem. Now that the poem has been made known to me, this technique has again taken on a different flavour. I wonder though, why does it say you need courage to launch this technique?

In the first set of pictures, I am unfamiliar with the last 2 techniques demonstrated as I have never seen it being displayed before. The 2nd last picture looks like a punch to the front, but why is the fist on top of the punching hand? In the Lam Sai Wing pictures, it says Left and Right Crane Settling Method, and GM LSW is pictured doing it with a Phoenix Eye Fist, am I right?

The last picture looks like a Fan Kiu of sorts, but I cannot work out its application and it has got me confused. The single leg stand and splitting of the arms definitely look like a Crane and its wings to me. What has stumped me is the claws at the end of the hand?

In the GM LSW pictures, I am unfamiliar posture 4, Single Leg Hungry Crane? Is this a posture after the kick or is it a solitary posture for launching the kick as in Single Leg Flying Crane?

Hungry Crane Looking for Clams is another technique which I have always seen being done but could never figure out the application. I know it is done after one beak clears the leg after the kick, but I do not know what it is meant to attack.

Sorry for the unlimited questions, I am, as you can tell by now, very hungry for knowledge and information. Thank you again so much for sharing all these precious information with me. I really appreciate it.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day Evert and Eric.

I wonder though, why does it say you need courage to launch this technique?

I was taught:- Very old-fashion way of saying to move into an attack.

Say you spot an upper gate attack, you advance or stay put and launch your technique. In this case, a up swing into his hand's underside cutting the elbow all the way to the armpit area.

The other explanation given to me is to treat attacker incoming arms/legs as a ball. You are to "throw" these and "from waves" indicates the needed energy to do this.

Tze Hou, try and seek understanding of poems. Ask your Sifu and Seniors. You will find all you need in the poems - hundreds if not thousands of year of knowledge/experience encapsulated.

THE VERY ESSENCE OF TRADITIONAL CHINESE KUNG FU..

[Eric Ling]

Thank you guys so much for that Soy Long Pow Choy poem. Now that the poem has been made known to me, this technique has again taken on a different flavour. I wonder though, why does it say you need courage to launch this technique?

*** Poems, Tze Hou, cannot overstate the magnitude of knowing and understanding them. The “Spirit” of the system really. I know TCMA is taught differently these days but during my training days, we were made to memorize and repeat them. The often heard, oral transmission is pointing to this. This is why I am very dubious when someone walks up to me and says they got a system and yet reveal little or no awareness of poems.

In the first set of pictures, I am unfamiliar with the last 2 techniques demonstrated as I have never seen it being displayed before. The 2nd last picture looks like a punch to the front, but why is the fist on top of the punching hand? In the Lam Sai Wing pictures, it says Left and Right Crane Settling Method, and GM LSW is pictured doing it with a Phoenix Eye Fist, am I right?

*** The Sifu in the old photos actually taught in Singapore. In fact, Evert sent these pix very early on in our correspondence and I wanted to query; is this his version of Fu-Hoc?
Because I was taught a slightly different version too. Like GM Lam, I was taught to use the one-knuckle except that you block, say right hand, snaps out quickly using the inverted knuckle to strike and then do a one-knuckle vertical punch with the left hand. The snapping out got to be done very fast like almost not there. The footwoek is front leg advances and rear leg follows.


The last picture looks like a Fan Kiu of sorts, but I cannot work out its application and it has got me confused. The single leg stand and splitting of the arms definitely look like a Crane and its wings to me. What has stumped me is the claws at the end of the hand?

***Got me baffled too.

In the GM LSW pictures, I am unfamiliar posture 4, Single Leg Hungry Crane? Is this a posture after the kick or is it a solitary posture for launching the kick as in Single Leg Flying Crane?

*** I love this technique. Hungry Crane my friend, a hungry crane needs food so it needs to peck at food source. So you hook an attack, peck his eyes and kick his groin in one move.

Hungry Crane Looking for Clams is another technique which I have always seen being done but could never figure out the application. I know it is done after one beak clears the leg after the kick, but I do not know what it is meant to attack.

***Again taught a slightly different version. Most Fu-Hoc that I’ve seen precedes this technique with bringing in the crane kick and using the beak hand to do a circular scooping and then execute the “seeking” hand. I do this from the first technique “sinking elbow” in the picture set i.e. I’ll do the “Crane’s Beak Sinking Elbow” and then continue to do the ‘seeking. This is actually a break and then hit technique, not so much in a “pecking” manner but using the crane hand like a sickle. Need to show you this one.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

Poems are, unfortunately, not available to me at this stage. I have no doubt my Sifu has them stashed some place, I have not been given access to it as yet, but I don't think my Sifu places great emphasis on the poems, due in large, to his inability to read Mandarin characters.

However, I do know the key to unlocking applications for the techniques lies within the poems, which is why I am so very grateful to you and Evert for sharing the poems with me as this unlocks that "mysterious" side of the techniques for me.

Eric, thank you for your explanation of the technique to me. I can visualise the Hungry Crane, but the Hungry Crane looking for Clams escapes me. I shall wait for our meeting so I can see what you mean.

Once again, thank you all so much.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou