garuda
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by garuda on Jan 28, 2005 13:10:53 GMT -5
Nataraya, I am sorry you dont like my questions, my suspicious of what you believe in, and dont buy what you preach .
But, I dont see it is a need to get personal. Like saleman. if the custumers critic your product. that is normal isnt it?
as for your view on
"No big ego's and "I know it all" statements."
See what have you post:
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See it in line with the words “waving one hand turns into 1000 hands? Don’t take it too literary. I see you have affinity with (Chan) Buddhism and surely understand what I mean? What you see/ read is not what it means, hahahahaha.
I can understand why you are not that popular against boards. You shoot a lot of bullets but are not able to score.
There are practitiners onboard with probably much more age/ experience then you, but are still able to communicate with respect and in a constructive manner. Please do us a favor and try to walk that path, as a noble Buddhist.
It is/was our drive to make the Wu Lin Tien Ti forum a nice small board in which a novice and a teacher were able to communicate, and learn from each other. This all in the light of respect and spiritual development. No big ego's and "I know it all" statements. Most people on board are still searching, like I am. Please let us search for the 'real thing'. Consider if this is a place you want to stay, although with some more text references you could be a very nice addition on this board. Communication is the key......
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Isnt the above full of judgements, self righteousness, power hunger to control the format of communication? and guess where is that comes from? Isnt that big ego?
The first step of searching for real thing is asking Critic Questions, not about making judgements based on one's view. So, it will be great if you stay away from personal judgement and attack.
Back to the K1 discussion:
Since you meantion---
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In shifting you have a central point to rotate. I am afraid that you underestimate the qualification of such an important energetic point as K1. The qualities can be seen as Lao-gong, Ming Men, etceteras. Points which can regulate/ open dynamically and can have a great impact on the final Geng/ Jing.
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Can you please describe to us what is the relationship and process with K1 and Ming Men ...etceteras. Points which can regulate/ open dynamically and can have a great impact on the final Geng/ Jing?
Now, since you want to go for the real thing. If you cant describe the reason and process from K1 to Jing. Then, is it that tell me the reason why you dont like my questions?
You just link and mix things up. Thus, You shoot a lot of bullets but are not able to score. so you are afraid being questions?
Proof me wrong about you have no idea between K1 and Ming Meng and Jing. I would like to be wrong.
I hope that you walk your talk for better communication. and get into REAL technical discussion here on.
Since you dont welcome critic thinking but wanting to use your position or owner of this forum to set your rule.
Thanks but no thanks. Good bye! and best luck for your search.
The real thing I am leaving here to others is that YJKYM means a nature claiming or suck-tion of Ying due to the proper direct manuval of the Yang side of the legs . As it said, Kam yong or Yang. if it is about directly manualing K1 then it will say Kam Yam or Ying.
Now is your turn Nataraya to describe your REAL Thing about K1 to Jing.
I truely dont think this type of communication is constructive right? what to proof? ego right?
communication is not about a boss running a coorporation he own where all other's voice he dont like has to be suppressed with all means to make others shutup.
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KPM
New Member
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Post by KPM on Jan 28, 2005 16:49:32 GMT -5
Hendrik wrote:
K1 is nice but incomplete. There are 4 areas in the feet which are needed to be look at.
---Very true! But we were talking specifically about the area of the foot used as the pivot point during shifting from YGKYM to a Pin Sun Ma.....from neutral to side stance. There can be only 1 point to pivot upon at a time! :-) Certainly I will sometimes end up pivoting on the heel during some transitional footwork movements. The third area of the feet I would consider to be the outer edge...the "yang" side. Also an important area to consider with "sinking" and "rooting." What do you consider the 4th area of the foot that has importance?
The old saying said, Young Chuan (K1) is no root. Waist is no master. the willow spine bending similar to boneless. waving one hand turn into thousand hands.
---Aren't old sayings often meant to be paradoxical in nature?
So, it is great to start with K1 or heel. but how can one points become the only point?
---I don't think anyone meant to imply that the K1 point was the ONLY point used for weight transitions. We were just discussing it as a weight transition or pivot point for the Chor Ma....stance pivot.
Keith
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KPM
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by KPM on Jan 28, 2005 16:52:18 GMT -5
Now this is interesting... I am also studying Soaring Crane Qigong and once you mentioned the Yong Quan as a pivotal, this is becoming more interesting. In Soaring Crane, the Yong Quan is an important point through which qi is discharged, especially in the fourth routine. Yong Quan also mingles inner qi with the qi from earth... Hi Mack! Not much of a chi gung guy myself, so I'll take your word for it. :-) I tend to think in terms of biomechanics, and from a biomechanical standpoint the K1 pivot makes good sense to me. Keith
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garuda
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by garuda on Jan 29, 2005 13:18:37 GMT -5
Very true! But we were talking specifically about the area of the foot used as the pivot point during shifting from YGKYM to a Pin Sun Ma.....from neutral to side stance.
There can be only 1 point to pivot upon at a time! Certainly I will sometimes end up pivoting on the heel during some transitional footwork movements.
The third area of the feet I would consider to be the outer edge...the "yang" side. Also an important area to consider with "sinking" and "rooting." What do you consider the 4th area of the foot that has importance? -----
The reason I am shocking this discussion is because what you have there is a Static Structure model in today's term. This needs to switch into a more realistic model today. IMHHO Sorry to get/might get some people upset here.
If you look at the Chinese or Mongolian Wrestling Classic. They will say that this type of Static structure model is great. The out come result is that it gives a Static balancing and might be great for some defensing situation.
However, this structure's limitation is that it will not be able to attack. and the bottom line of the game is that defence will never win. one can defence 99 attack and it has to take just the last 1 attack. The game is over because one is on the ground.
Thus, the Chinese or Mongolian Wrestle classicfied this type of static structure is not that usefull at all. They are using the Dynamic structure model.
Look at this static structure model closely. May be you can see why lots of WCners got beat by the Wrestle or Grapper or all fight end up on ground.
In addition, the general Term Root which is so much use today. is not more then lowering the center of gravity trick. IMHHO. It doesnt work against well against anyone is training with the Dynamic Model.
My Critics on all the points discussion is that:
0, I have seen it lead to an intelectuarized chatt which is great but lock in a narrow domain or very specific case.
1, point be it K1 or anypoint are not real in a sense of human is a 3D volume. there are action and reaction force vectors and inertial momentum all over the place.
2, Thinking of Knowing the K1 or heel or anypoints and intentionally using that points is greating problem, A big problem. Because that become an OPen Loop training which neglect the actual sensing of the 3D volume vectors force and momentum.
3, knowing the area intelecturely is not going to produce Kung Fu. For Kung is a product of beyond intelecturized or thoughts. Kung is similar to a bullet in the gun. one dont have to intelecturized. just pull the triggle and everything happen naturally. IMHHO, our generation has analized certain statics model to death. and analized doesnt produce Kung.
We can continously go on and on in the line of Shifting K1 discussion agree or not agree....ect. What I bring up here is there is another alternative called Dynamic Model.
Certainly, we can think the samething and do the same thing again and again and get beat by the wrestle again and again. nothing will change.
So, you then might ask. what did those ancestors did? Well, IMHHO, they started with attaining the Kung of Awareness of the totallity or cosmic power or some called 6 directional forces or swiming in the air ...ect. That by default place them into the Dynamic model. and then, they can talk about K1 or Ball of the feet or heel or Yang.... ect for an emphasising. The problem of us the modern people is that we never understand the cosmic power or the awareness of the totallity. and we intelecturized the K1 or other points part... on what it will do.. that is not the same with what it means with those ancestors who has the Kung. and in WCK, IMHHO that get link to the Snake body and Crane Potential which is another way of saying the Awareness of the totallity or the six direction force sensing and manuval.
So, a person with the snake body Crane potential will by default handling or implementing the same point differently. That is also why every style is using K1 or waist....ect but the result is different.
BTW ---Aren't old sayings often meant to be paradoxical in nature?
Often the old saying is the describition of reality itself. It has no logic because it is a describtion of what is happening.
A hand wave out becomes thousand hands is reality of describing the old saying " Strike cover a full range" meaning, whatever whenever whereever part of body others come to contact within the domain, Jing is issue automaticall. Thus, one cannot pin point K1 is the "IT"...ect. who knows what, where, when the strike will contact? if one uses physic's resultant force vector to analized this one will see how things changes in a dynamic travelling and fuzzy logical system way.
So, IMHHO, it is a describtion of what is going on beyond logical derivation.
Just some thoughts. And A gain I am learning too similar to all the people discuss here. Never claim I know it all.
I understand where people in the discussion's view. I just choose to use another view angle and shock the discussion to extend the range of the discussion.
And, it is my observation that when I post with confident sometimes, since we are not face to face, people might take me as egoistic or erogant. As is different between telling one "get Lost" with a smile or "get lost" mad. So that is a problem with Web discussion.
and my point is simply to extend the discussion beyong K1, 4 points, 50-50, 0 100....ect into totality or integrative dynamic structure model. instead of stuck at Those static, flying blind of condition model. Those doesnt work well hundreds years ago against the Wrestle. So, it wont work well today. and from the classical literature we can know the ancestors must know something beyond what we know. that is fun to figure out what happen what they know which we dont or having differenct understanding. IMHHO.
And sure I can be totally wrong.
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KPM
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by KPM on Jan 30, 2005 7:42:21 GMT -5
Hendrik wrote: The reason I am shocking this discussion is because what you have there is a Static Structure model in today's term. This needs to switch into a more realistic model today. IMHHO Sorry to get/might get some people upset here.
---Not if you are willing to elaborate a bit and explain what you mean. :-) Sure our description is pretty simplistic because, after all, you have to start somewhere. Talking about how to pivot is "WCK 101" and one of the first things a newbie learns to do. What you are alluding to is the more advanced version. :-)
Look at this static structure model closely. May be you can see why lots of WCners got beat by the Wrestle or Grapper or all fight end up on ground.
---It would be silly to assume that a simple pivot can protect against a takedown. Can you explain how you see this "dynamic" model as opposed to a "static" model?
In addition, the general Term Root which is so much use today. is not more then lowering the center of gravity trick. IMHHO. It doesnt work against well against anyone is training with the Dynamic Model.
---Sure "rooting" involves lowering the center of gravity. But IMHO there are good ways to do it and not so good ways. Anyone can lower their COG, but if the knees go out, they bend excessively at the waist, or they "squat" too much they won't necessarily be in a good stable fighting position. Good "rooting" involves not only lowering the COG, but also keeping a good solid stance from a WCK perspective. I'm still not clear on what you mean by the "dynamic model." Can you elaborate?
1, point be it K1 or anypoint are not real in a sense of human is a 3D volume. there are action and reaction force vectors and inertial momentum all over the place.
----Sure. But again....WCK 101...you have to have the basics! :-)
2, Thinking of Knowing the K1 or heel or anypoints and intentionally using that points is greating problem, A big problem. Because that become an OPen Loop training which neglect the actual sensing of the 3D volume vectors force and momentum.
---You have to walk before you can run. How do you teach pivoting?
Certainly, we can think the samething and do the same thing again and again and get beat by the wrestle again and again. nothing will change.
---How does the "dynamic model" help one to defend against the grapple?
So, you then might ask. what did those ancestors did? Well, IMHHO, they started with attaining the Kung of Awareness of the totallity or cosmic power or some called 6 directional forces or swiming in the air ...ect. That by default place them into the Dynamic model. and then, they can talk about K1 or Ball of the feet or heel or Yang.... ect for an emphasising.
---Sounds like a lofty way of just saying that they got out there and "mixed it up" and worried about the details later. :-)
The problem of us the modern people is that we never understand the cosmic power or the awareness of the totallity. and we intelecturized the K1 or other points part... on what it will do.. that is not the same with what it means with those ancestors who has the Kung. and in WCK, IMHHO that get link to the Snake body and Crane Potential which is another way of saying the Awareness of the totallity or the six direction force sensing and manuval.
----OK. So can you explain or elaborate on this "six direction force"?
A hand wave out becomes thousand hands is reality of describing the old saying " Strike cover a full range" meaning, whatever whenever whereever part of body others come to contact within the domain, Jing is issue automaticall. Thus, one cannot pin point K1 is the "IT"...
---Well sure! You should be able to generate the "short power" at any time. It doesn't rely on the pivot. No one said that the K1 pivot was the be all and end all to power generation. I only said that whether you pivot on the heel or on K1 affects how you generate power.
I understand where people in the discussion's view. I just choose to use another view angle and shock the discussion to extend the range of the discussion.
---Nothing wrong with that! Looking forward to further discussion on your points! Thanks!
Keith
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garuda
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by garuda on Jan 30, 2005 20:30:38 GMT -5
Keith
1, have you ever wonder how come the Taiji people has all the writing on : the basics, the Ki, the Lau Kung, the Wei Lu, the Bai Hui, the hou Xing, the Yue Zhen, The Ying Jiau the Yang Jiau, the Qi, The Jing, The push hands and still most of Taiji people cannot applied the intelecture knowledge? They have all thier 101 or even 501 but still most stuck?
2, a Dynamic structure is analogy similar to a Hologram while a Static structure is analogy similar to a black and white picture. so, for 101, there is a heaven and earth difference between starting with a Static 101 or dynamic 101, or analogus with a hologram or a black and white picture.
(One sure can have lots and lots of pictures which is better then no picture or a single picture. But a hologram will tell what lots of combination of picture difficult to tell.)
a dynamic structure provie a 3D sensing/monitoring capability operating in a close loop which is always update adjust or iterate taking account on both internal and external evironment to get where one wants to go.
while a static structure provide a FIX approaximation solution which one follows.
A generalization examples:
a simple example of a dynamic structure:
when one stand in just an equal shoulder width nature stance. if one is relax and the whole body link up (that is the sifu's job to make sure the relax and body link up, if one's knee pop out or over extended... then one has not have the training for basic nature body link.),
due to the breahting, just natural breathing,
the point of rooting is not stay at a single point.
it can be sweeping/shifting dynamically in a range from the ball of the feet to the heel.
Just stand there and the body naturally dynamically do that.
an example of a static struture:
When one stand in the same equal shoulder width nature stance. one "roots" to K1 or heel as command by the will.
So, one stand there to comman the body root to K1.
(Some even get more clever, they use the toes to grap the ground to make it more strongly "root". and guess what is that "root" cost?)
So, now, from the above two different type of stucture. they derive out to various different things and ways. And, when one says, root with K1. the person who train with the dynamic structure is going to view it different from the one who train with the static structure.
4, So, what is that six direction force vectors? since physical human body is living in a 3D physical world or a x,y, z coordinate. There are two opposite vectors in each coordinate to make things in equilibrium. Thus, it takes 6 vectors in the 3 coordinates. and, from these 6 vectors different resultant force is produced and manage.
the six direction force vectors will surface naturally and being AWARE when one is following the dynamic structure of model and training.
IE, the breathing is moving the body back and forth while the stance is compensating the movements cause by the breathing. So, there are 2 directions of force vectors here.....
As for using the static structure model, since one's intend is the body's command. One over write the 6 directional force at will.
So, there again, using the static structure or dynamic structure to study to train is going to yield different result.
Same 101, static 101 is different with Dynamic 101. It is not about forgeting the details or getting fuzzy, in contrary, it is becomes getting more details and getting more intensity and contrast ratio.
4, Fajing. what is Fajing? how is Fajing view by the dynamic structure people or the static structure people.
Take the same breathiing components there. Static structure people has a tendency of stop breathing before using thier force or doing Braking while breathing or forcefully breath out.
Dynamic structure people based on no stop, no preparation, no brake, no force breathing.
IE: instead of breaking a car one doesnt have to put that much force in the begining, or no accesive accerelation, or let the friction of the road resistance of the wind...ect decelarate it (due to the sensing and iteration tell them how much it needs)....
So, we talk about Fajing, rooting... which one is Fajing? which one is short power? do one uses K1 or not? how is all those k1 and breathing and body momentum related? well, that also depend on which type of structure one trained with. and IMHHO, that is not fuzzy at all it is very clear in detail. However, what is politically correct that is a even bigger issue. IMHHO
So, the above is my view, It is a different paradigm of things so, Hope these above give you some feeling on what I am talking about. and again I might have no idea on what I am talking about or I am totally wrong.
cheers
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Post by chaotic2k on Mar 18, 2005 21:03:34 GMT -5
turning on the heels keeps the body as 1 unit. Turning on the toes means you lose the stance. Too much weight on the heels is bad, about 70% heels, 30% rest of foot. Can still move effectivley, have tried and tested it in real life situations. The key is to do as little movment as possible. The head must remain on the same axis, the weight must be 60% back leg, 40 % front , too much weight on back leg means your off balance. Could go on all day about shifting but i will stop here.
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