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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 13, 2004 18:49:46 GMT -5
Hi folks,
Starting a fresh topic that is nothing “new” – been around in other forums for quite a bit now.
The connections between Katas and CFK Forms – the history, progression and everything else.
I know there will be some of you out there who will go;” Oh no, not again”. But, I think this forum will derive something different from our exchanges considering the diversified backgrounds of members.
Okay before we all go running off in every directions, let start with San Chin Kata.
Remember, we are exploring “CONNECTIONS” .
Methodically, I think we should:-
• Talk about passed down histories. • Examine form and structure both external and internal. • Principles.
Can I get a Karata-ka to open this topic please?
And only fighting allowed is over a couple of Carlsberg. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 15, 2004 5:51:02 GMT -5
aaaarrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!! What are all the Karate members of this forum?
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Post by CStephens on Dec 15, 2004 7:31:58 GMT -5
Sorry; I've been messed up on cold medication. When I get back from the chiropractor, I'll ask some questions. [edit] I'm back. The history I've been able to associate with Sanchin kata of Isshinryu is this: It is Miyagi's version, modified for only forward and rearword stepping. Also, the "strikes" which were originally open handed, as taught by Higaonna (Miyagi's instructor) were modified to the more Ryukyu conventional closed fist. (I've also heard that Higaonna taught Sanchin with both closed fist and open hand, but I cannot verify this). As for the form, the most striking thing to me is the stance (again, working with the Isshinryu forward-and-backword). With the feet aligned so as to be heal-to-toe, with the feet shoulder width, the toes are pointed inwards. Here, the knees naturally drop, creating a knock-kneed appearance. Now, the pelvis is tilted forward. This creates a "sinking" feeling, allowing for both downward and upward directing/redirecting of force. (Since I am not that well versed in the finer points of power generation, I will stop this description here). Muscular tension is used to hold the stance, particularly in the inner thigh and hamstring, the soleus and gastrocnemius of the lower leg, and in the abdominals (please, no one say "lower abdominals," the rectus abdominus is one continuous tissue). This makes a very solid-come-fluid stance when applied with the principles contained in Sanchin. The one thing which jumps out at me with regards to the principles of Sanchin is as stated in the Kempo Gokui, the code of Isshinryu Karate, "The manner of drinking and spitting is either hard or soft." (Again, I am not well-versed in power generation terminology, so forgive my stumbling) This implies the ability to "drop" down or explode up (this is again an implication drawn from the stance and from the embusen). Also this principle of Hard and Soft is useful in the redirection of energy. I think I'll stop butchering the idea now, and ask the more experienced in the arts to cover those holes in my ideas. Great thread, by the way.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 15, 2004 22:23:52 GMT -5
Thanks for opening this topic Cody. Okay like I emphasized this thread is to investigate SIMILARITIES and your explanation did a fantastic job of creating an appropriate platform. Okay the Chinese story concerning San Chin / San Chiem / San Zhan or San Cheen:- First the differences in spelling:- 1. San Chin: - I presume this is in Kanji. 2. San Chiem – Fukien for 3 battles/wars. 3. San Zhan – Mandarin for 3 battles/wars. 4. San Cheen – Also Fukien but with a different twang. I am only going to use “San Chin” here throughout. San Chin is a generic form found in many Southern Fukien Kung Fu systems. Again, in order not to be too scattered in our examination here, I am keeping to just a few major systems. The role of San Chin cannot be over-emphasized in Southern Fukien kung Fu. Very frequently, you would hear phrases like “To be excellent in Kung Fu, find it in San Chin” etc etc.. San Chin is also known to many CKF exponents as “3 Advances and Retreats”. If you are a student of Chinese culture, you would then realize that “3” assume a major function in paying respect, Chinese style. Examples:- 1. When you bow to Ancestors, you do it 3 times. 2. When couples get married through a Chinese ceremony, they bow 3 times to one and another. 3. In “Wing Chun”, the 3 “Fook sau” turning in 3 “Wu sau” are collectively known as “San Pai Fut” or “Praying to the Buddha 3 times”. 4. In Hung Ga Fu-Hoc (the version that I learned) I do my one-finger palm 3 times. This is to honour the “Ming” dynasty. 5. In certain Hakka systems, they salute 3 times with their vertical palm over fist formation. In many Fukien styles, San Chin is taught as “3 advances and retreats” to honor their ancestors. According to written records, the major San Chins are:- 1. Yong Chun White Crane San Chin. 2. Tai Chor San Chin 3. Tien Ti Ren (Heaven, Earth and man) San Chin – Shaolin Lohan Stream. 4. Straight Bow San Chin 5. Monkey San Chin 6. Crane San Chin #2 to #5 is now found in the 5 Ancestors system. If you stick to the original procedures of San Chin, you’ve to observe the following: - • Right time of the day to do San Chin. • Never face east in the morning. • Never face north at all. When doing San Chin, be conscious of:- Upper section. • Arm • Neck • Shoulder • Head Middle section • Waist • Stomach • Hip • Back Lower section • Leg • Knee • Sole The actual methodology is “coded” in poems and I will share them later. “Swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating”, growing “roots” when your feet are placed and hands following ying/yang 5 elements principles. These are the essential ideologies of San Chin in CKF. I hope to get some contributions from CKF San Chin exponents here. From the classic San Chin text in my collection:- When you do your 2 forward palms this is the water/fire hands formation. Weight is distributed 70% front and 30% back. When you do finger thrusts, power must reach the tips. I'll do the rest later……….
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Post by Gojumaster on Dec 16, 2004 7:09:52 GMT -5
Guys, I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have time until the weekend to give this post the attention it deserves. I owe you a discussion of how I have been taught the principles, uses, and methods of training Sanchin kata from Goju-Ryu standpoint. I'll break it into 3 sections: Lower body, Upper body and Unified body. Sorry, but it's a busy week, AND I'm trying to spend more time training. Best Regards, Russ Hi folks, Starting a fresh topic that is nothing “new” – been around in other forums for quite a bit now. The connections between Katas and CFK Forms – the history, progression and everything else. I know there will be some of you out there who will go;” Oh no, not again”. But, I think this forum will derive something different from our exchanges considering the diversified backgrounds of members. Okay before we all go running off in every directions, let start with San Chin Kata. Remember, we are exploring “CONNECTIONS” . Methodically, I think we should:- • Talk about passed down histories. • Examine form and structure both external and internal. • Principles. Can I get a Karata-ka to open this topic please? And only fighting allowed is over a couple of Carlsberg. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by MightBHooked on Dec 16, 2004 9:19:01 GMT -5
aaaarrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!! What are all the Karate members of this forum? Eric, My apologies, but I must respectfully bow out on this one, being that Sanchin is not in Shorinryu’s Syllabus, hence I’m not qualified to comment. Regards, Larry
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Post by CStephens on Dec 17, 2004 0:42:37 GMT -5
Wow, great stuff. Very informative. Looking forward to more. OT; don't suppose there's any chance of seeing your San Chin?
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 17, 2004 3:13:13 GMT -5
Wow, great stuff. Very informative. Looking forward to more. OT; don't suppose there's any chance of seeing your San Chin? Hi Cody, I don’t do San Chin in Whooping Crane. We do something called San Jin or “3 Advances”. This is totally different from the other Southern CKF San Chin both in techniques and objectives. However, I do San Chin in Tai Chor – 3 sets in fact. I also do a San Chin set in Fuzhou Crane and another Tiger-Crane San Chin. These I will post some pixs later and when ready, I will post clips with Russ. The interesting thing to note is that Southern Fukien Shaolin doesn’t do any kind of San Chin type forms. You would expect them to have this in their training scheme somewhere. Shaolin has always been treated as the major source of development as far as CKF is talked about. But as far as I know, CKF San Chin is developed outside Shaolin walls. So I am not very surprised that Larry said they don’t do San Chin. “ShorinRyu” mean “Shaolin Stream” in kanji right? So the fun question is; where did CKF’s San Chin comes from? Remember Pit said Tai Chor and I understand why. Looking at all the Southern CKF major streams, Tai Chor has the longest recorded history. All the way back to “Chao Kwang Ying” of Song Dynasty. He was popularly known as the:”Grand Ancestor’ of the Song Dynasty, thus the name “Tai Chor’ or “Grand Ancestor” boxing. Personally, I think Northern Tai Chor is very distinct from its Southern counterpart. Original Tai Chor is Northern Fist without any kind of San Chin training in their training scheme. The classical text “32 postures of Flying Dragon Boxing” refers to Northern Tai Chor. You cannot get more “Northern” than that. Southern Tai Chor might have been inspired by Chao but the substance is really more Crane/Tiger and Southern Lohan Boxing. You can’t miss these elements in Southern Tai Chor. So chronologically, you have to look at Fujian White Crane next. Check out Martin Watts’ San Chin and you are going to find it very recognizable. I think this is the blueprint of the later San Chins in CKF. To quote Martin; the further you get away from the source, the more complex it becomes. Martin’s San Chin really looks “raw” when compared to the other San Chins in Southern CKF.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 17, 2004 4:53:14 GMT -5
Quote 1:
So the fun question is; where did CKF’s San Chin comes from?
Quote 2:
We do something called San Jin or “3 Advances”.
Very interesting question, if I may interrupt discussion. For that you can analyse till the bone, or combine to see overlaps. The last thing Eric we did, and in fact I still work on this, with some remarkable aspects. But it will take LONG letters to explain in detail. This Sunday Martin and i will ABSOLUTELY talk. I need his help when he is heading to Fukien soon.
Both quotes are related to each other and shared in other systems as well. Hakka Boxing is the martial arts group, that are linked with it. We believe that they share the same thoughts and deity's. If so, then the direction becomes much more clear of development and the source of it all.
Hakka were travellors from the North, but in fact stay all over China. For those interested in knowing more about this minority group. Hakka's were close to a Daoist sect, and linked with agricultural work. So many things that did play a role and seen in both martial groups.
I did share Hakka clips with Russ and I am pleased to hear/ read his observations. The direction is absolutely good.
Yesterday I did create a DVD for Martin on it old styles such as Spiritual Butterfly Boxing, Fukien Crane (Dong MU Yau, Pan In Lam, Tung......) But also Southern Tai Tzu from Zu Sao Pen.
His forms are beautiful and close to San Jin/ Saam Tzien. His 'espressions' [Eric] are GREAT! Bit by bit I am able to understand a little bit more about Fukienese art. And I love to see it and read your stories here. Thank you all!
So, Hakka and Saam Tzien have a lot in common. Hakka arts have a specific culture and history which can shine some light on new research.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 17, 2004 9:25:14 GMT -5
Hi Folks, Posting some pictures of one of Fuzhou Crane Sifus doing Tiger-Crane San Chin. Li Wen Shi Sifu is in his 90s now and still residing in Singapore.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 17, 2004 9:35:59 GMT -5
Yesterday I did create a DVD for Martin on it old styles such as Spiritual Butterfly Boxing, Fukien Crane (Dong MU Yau, Pan In Lam, Tung......) But also Southern Tai Tzu from Zu Sao Pen. . Aha, where is my copy, you crazzzzy Dutch man? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by CStephens on Dec 17, 2004 17:33:56 GMT -5
Not to get off-topic from Sanchin, but the last from the picture posted looks like the final move in Isshinryu's (at least my schools version) Seisan - a Shorinryu form.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 17, 2004 23:08:02 GMT -5
Hi Cody, That is the fire/water hands refered to in my earlier post. I am posting another kind of San Chin here taken from Tai Chor. This form is known as "Tai Chor San Chin 12 steps". Btw, I am forever 25 lalalalalala.
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Post by CStephens on Dec 17, 2004 23:33:44 GMT -5
Well dayum, I don't know why I didn't see that before. Our Seisan's closing technique is just a minor alteration of the technique found in Sanchin (in our Seisan, however, the hands are just about palms facing each other, as opposed to frontal facing). Also, the power generation is different.
That's great stuff.
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Post by CStephens on Dec 17, 2004 23:42:50 GMT -5
I was wondering, what is the most common practice methodology for San Chin in Southern CKF families? By this, I mean is dynamic tension, or the use of the form more for conditioning, a prevelant practice?
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