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Post by pitbull on Nov 14, 2004 17:43:07 GMT -5
ok...thanks for the explanation. i really appreciate it
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by Seeker on Nov 19, 2004 19:40:37 GMT -5
No problem
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Post by olddragon on Jan 2, 2005 18:06:14 GMT -5
Shotokan karate is not watered down Okinawan Karate. Yes it is different, and yes it's origins came from an Okinawan.
Funakoshi went to Japan to teach and while there was given an opportunity to introduce karate to the university system. The japanese by nature of their culture and previous experiences with the martial arts that were taught in a military setting adapted it to their own traditions of large classes.
During the war Funakoshi's "dojo" was destroyed and the students and government all got together and built a new one. Funakoshi was a writer who wrote under the pen name of Shoto, and the sign over the door read the "House of Shoto" or "Shoto Kan" very similar reference as in the "Budo Kan" in Okinawa.
Funakoshi was not the originator of the name, nor was he the "founder" of the style. He taught what he had been taught, adapted to the Japanese traditions. Yes the Bunkai was not taught as much but the japanese saw it as a simple straight forward sequence of blocks, punches and kicks. Remember that Funakoshi's premis for the karate was to build a better person. Low stances were for exercise, in his books he states that this is the case but to fight one must "stand up"
Another point to clarify is that there is no Kobudo in either Japanese or Okinawan Karate, they are seperate arts. In the last 50 years there are a few hybrid styles that have evolved kobudo into the cirriculum. In the last 20 years many of the Okinawan styles have added kobudo kata to their syllabus for the sake of offering more to teach. Anyone who was training 20 years ago knows that there was basiclly no weapons taught in traditional Okinawan or japanese dojo. Since that time many have adopted bo kata (Shushi no Kun being the most popular) and eventually as we see now Mayatoshi and Ryu Kyu Kobudo have invaded and been accepted as part of these dojo.
The interesting thing is that many teaching Kobudo are not qualified to teach. Going to a seminar or training sporaticlly over a year or two to gain a sylabus of kata does not teach the fine points of the kata and mechanics. I beleive that martial arts in General are being watered down over time as the western business dojo excells and the ego driven new ryu ha surface with tales of new masters and long lost techniques.
Shoto kan and Other Japanese Based karate styles do have root in Okinawa but as Okinawa developed its martial arts from other roots so has the Japanese development of Karate come to stand on its own.
I am not a japanese practioner but felt that the need to clarify that styles are not superior to each other, practioners are, needed to be stated in this conversation. Funakoshi taught the development of character through the practice of Karate, this blended quite well with The Budo of the samurai that was still a prevalant philosophy in the Japanese culture even though it was an outlawed class. Remember that Japan had been training with weapons and other empty hand techniques for years before Funakoshi arrived. They simply never had developed a primarily punching and kicking sylabus in their training.
My two cents.
Mike O'Leary
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Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Jan 2, 2005 18:48:33 GMT -5
If I may add a few comments to OldDragon's points.
Shotokan karate (generically) is not one way of doing things either. There are many layers of sub-groups within the Shotkan framework leverging different aspects of Funakoshi Sensei's teachings. Developing on the Japanese mainland, and working for different intent, developing a way to spread the system of teaching to large groups of students, changes occured, some by Funakoshi, some by his son (one might conculude with his 'ok'), some by the senior student he taught. It developed in ways different from the Okinawan roots, but truthfully the Okinawan systems kept changing too.
I think the 'judo' ideal, dropping the martial and emphasizing human development took hold. The Shotokan developed in the university setting, university students wre not being trained to be street fighters (if that ever was the goal of the Okinawan arts), nor were the Military universities looking for hand to hand combat training, they were specializing in modern military warfare. The hand to hand potential was a side benefit. Likewise grappling wasn't a focus as Karate developed in an environment where many of the students likely had a judo background, so logically things were re-focused to provide their nitch in their society.
Trying to paint Shotokan as one set of training really fails when you run into those who do not follow that 'set' of rules, who also have roots back to Funakoshi Sensei.
On the whole the generalization between Japanese and Okinawan does ring true, its just the world is built on particulars not generalities. Just as bad to suggest Tae Kwon Do just kicks until you run into someone in TKD who hits very well.
The link between kobudo and karate is interesting. Take Funakoshi Sensei, his father was a bo expert, but the karate he studied was not kobudo based. Yet he did demo's with bo and sai in Japan (the photo's remain), but did not include them in his system.
I believe in Okinawa things were much the same. Karate developed separately from Okinawan sumo (wrestling) and while grappling is part of the art, the initial focus is on percusive technique. One of the Shorin branches, through Kyan Chotoku did include one bo kata, 'Tokomeni no Kon'.
As a Funakoshi student, Tara Shinken, grew interested in the Okinawan Kobudo being taught by Mabuni, Yaba Ku Moden and others on the Japanese mainland, Tara began a committed effort to collect as much Okinawan Kobudo as possible and I believe literally created the modern Kobudo approach. There are certainly other strong Okinawn kobudo traditions, but Tara in the late 50's was sharing his studies with various Karate instructors, such as Isshinryu's founder, and some of the Tara studies were incorporated into their systems.
Where Tara's groups were focused on Kobudo, the karate systems that picked up material from him, were not especially Kobudo oriented, the weapons training was as subset of the studies. Obviously the aftermath of WWII made the study of weapons for defense totally obselete. But the value in overall strength training, increased hand grip training, and focus development, may have been the real answer they were incorporated.
I sort of see this as similar to why the Chinese systems may have kept their content rich weapons studies. After inventing gunpowder and sparking modern warfare development, and experiencing the reality of the boxer rebellion, I don't think the value was in fighting skills, but the incredible side benefit in strength, grip and endurance, etc. those studies yield.
Where I believe the modern kobudo entrance was made, as OldDragon suggests, was in the marketplace, schools looking for something else to sell. The goal became something else for the beginner, something else to compete with, and very little attention paid to whether the studies were in depth and meaningful in a long term way.
Unfortunately I've seen incredibly bad kobudo over the years. Children swinging bo's that made me want to smack their mothers around for letting them chance injury to themselves. People using sai's for baton twirling, and of course the incredible nunchuku craze sparked by Bruce Lee, the result of which is much of the current legislation making 'karate' weapons illegal to possess in many locations.
And keeping to the modern marketplace, there are no standards who can teach anything. I've seen green belts instructing white belts in 'bo', and to suggest that is incorrect violates the sacred rights for those who want to do so...............
Martially the world has become very strange.
Victor Smith
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Post by olddragon on Jan 2, 2005 23:09:27 GMT -5
Well Said Mr. Smith. We have shared posts on other forums, it is nice to see More Isshin ryu around here.
Mike O'Leary
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by Seeker on Jan 15, 2005 10:37:54 GMT -5
Shotokan karate is not watered down Okinawan Karate. Yes it is different, and yes it's origins came from an Okinawan. Funakoshi went to Japan to teach and while there was given an opportunity to introduce karate to the university system. The japanese by nature of their culture and previous experiences with the martial arts that were taught in a military setting adapted it to their own traditions of large classes. During the war Funakoshi's "dojo" was destroyed and the students and government all got together and built a new one. Funakoshi was a writer who wrote under the pen name of Shoto, and the sign over the door read the "House of Shoto" or "Shoto Kan" very similar reference as in the "Budo Kan" in Okinawa. Funakoshi was not the originator of the name, nor was he the "founder" of the style. He taught what he had been taught, adapted to the Japanese traditions. Yes the Bunkai was not taught as much but the japanese saw it as a simple straight forward sequence of blocks, punches and kicks. Remember that Funakoshi's premis for the karate was to build a better person. Low stances were for exercise, in his books he states that this is the case but to fight one must "stand up" Another point to clarify is that there is no Kobudo in either Japanese or Okinawan Karate, they are seperate arts. In the last 50 years there are a few hybrid styles that have evolved kobudo into the cirriculum. In the last 20 years many of the Okinawan styles have added kobudo kata to their syllabus for the sake of offering more to teach. Anyone who was training 20 years ago knows that there was basiclly no weapons taught in traditional Okinawan or japanese dojo. Since that time many have adopted bo kata (Shushi no Kun being the most popular) and eventually as we see now Mayatoshi and Ryu Kyu Kobudo have invaded and been accepted as part of these dojo. The interesting thing is that many teaching Kobudo are not qualified to teach. Going to a seminar or training sporaticlly over a year or two to gain a sylabus of kata does not teach the fine points of the kata and mechanics. I beleive that martial arts in General are being watered down over time as the western business dojo excells and the ego driven new ryu ha surface with tales of new masters and long lost techniques. Shoto kan and Other Japanese Based karate styles do have root in Okinawa but as Okinawa developed its martial arts from other roots so has the Japanese development of Karate come to stand on its own. I am not a japanese practioner but felt that the need to clarify that styles are not superior to each other, practioners are, needed to be stated in this conversation. Funakoshi taught the development of character through the practice of Karate, this blended quite well with The Budo of the samurai that was still a prevalant philosophy in the Japanese culture even though it was an outlawed class. Remember that Japan had been training with weapons and other empty hand techniques for years before Funakoshi arrived. They simply never had developed a primarily punching and kicking sylabus in their training. My two cents. Mike O'Leary Good Points, yes, but Shotokan is not Okinawan karate, and I personally would call it watered down, as many elements were left out. As for Kobudo, in the old Koryu systems of Okinawa the Bushi warriors practiced the weapons (kobudo) rightalong side of the empty hand in the respective systems, (Uhugushuku, Motobu Udun Ti, Wakinagiri ect.)
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Post by essence on Jan 20, 2005 16:21:07 GMT -5
Good day people.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion here, but I want to point out something.
The movie, Fighter in the Wind, really explains about why Kyokushin is not really considered Karate as such. Mas Oyama's basic training was not in Karate, but in a Korean system, of which I forgot the name.
He was trained in this system, and was introduced to the works of Musashi. After which, he went into seclusion due to his personal situation and refined himself to attain the standard by which we know him today.
The Japanese, at that time, refused to admit that he was doing a form of Karate and labelled him a thug, even though he went around Japan disposing of the dojos which stood in his way.
The extreme forms of conditioning portrayed in the show was amazing. The movie even covered what happened to him when he had to confront the demons in his head at night alone in the mountain. Very interesting show.
I believe why Kyokushin is never really held to be a form of Karate stems from the fact that the style was really an evolution of a Korean system. What do you guys think?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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