Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:46:34 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 10:46:34 GMT -5
Okay, i did not know if anyone here used it
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 12:40:35 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Dec 18, 2004 12:40:35 GMT -5
Here are three additional ones in my library: Dear, I will attach the covers of the three Bubishi books I have: Warm regards, Evert.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 14:19:54 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 14:19:54 GMT -5
Here are three additional ones in my library: I can read none of these but the first one looks good
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Bubishi
Dec 19, 2004 11:19:12 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 19, 2004 11:19:12 GMT -5
Eric, can you tell me the name of the deity of Crane Boxing? Do you have any photo's of the deity in a Mo Kwoon/ martial hall? Russ, are in those three books of yours, more pictures of the deity? Strange that I have affinity with this deity. Why else do I use the nickname of Nataraya? Hahahahahaha Warm regards, Evert.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 19, 2004 12:51:48 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 19, 2004 12:51:48 GMT -5
This looks like Sheva, the cosmic dancer, and goddess of creation and destruction, from Hindu theology
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Bubishi
Dec 19, 2004 13:49:46 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 19, 2004 13:49:46 GMT -5
Every coin have two sides Chizikunbo you touched a side which I di not meant to talk about directly. I was facing mainly the warriors side of Nataraya. My respect for this all started after reading 'Bodhisattva's warriors'. I needed a nickname then, and thoughts about that story. That's all.
Nataraya is the specialist of the martial dance. The dance of destruction or the dance of health. Or let's say simply; To heal or harm. The relation between Nataraya and Feng Huo Yuan, is significant. This deity have its meaning in Hakka Boxing systems (Wind Fire [ancestral] hall) and probably White Crane Boxing. Why else do you see this deity in the Bubishi books? A discussion we are having between some Chinese colleagues.....
But its still an object of attention and research, which I enjoy every second. This afternoon Martin Watts promised me to visit more Mo Kwoons in Fukien province to 'snap' the presentations of this deity in Fujian arts. If this is the case we have a probably link between Hakka Boxing arts and Fukien arts, the same deity. Fang Qiniang adopted this God..............
Feng Huo Yuan is linked with a special branch of Daoism. Another practitioner however did research and talk about the Thunder God. We know the relation between Hakka and agriculture. This all is in a beginning stage, and take lots of times to verify.
That's why I decided today to attach the picture of Nataraya. Martin Watts was enthusiastic, and I probably too much exited too about the direction the research is heading too. No intention to sound arrogant, just exoted about a possible link between cantonese arts - Hakka arts and Fukien arts. That's all.
I hope I was able to explain a litle bit, the relation of dancing in relation with destruction and nourishing. Finally leading to spiritual development and wisdom.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 19, 2004 13:52:38 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 19, 2004 13:52:38 GMT -5
Interesting Stuff:) Thanks for the explaination
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Bubishi
Dec 21, 2004 10:05:35 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 21, 2004 10:05:35 GMT -5
Hakka deity and one from the Bubishi: Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 21, 2004 10:19:49 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Dec 21, 2004 10:19:49 GMT -5
Evert, I'll check my collection for some more pictures of this diety. I'm sure I have a few. Best Regards, Russ Eric, can you tell me the name of the deity of Crane Boxing? Do you have any photo's of the deity in a Mo Kwoon/ martial hall? Russ, are in those three books of yours, more pictures of the deity? Strange that I have affinity with this deity. Why else do I use the nickname of Nataraya? Hahahahahaha Warm regards, Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 22, 2004 7:09:22 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Dec 22, 2004 7:09:22 GMT -5
Evert, Log into my site and look under the "Wu Lin" menu. There is a new Photo page there, where I have uploaded some scans of this diety from the 7 bubishi versions I have. Evert, I'll check my collection for some more pictures of this diety. I'm sure I have a few. Best Regards, Russ
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Bubishi
Dec 22, 2004 7:58:17 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 22, 2004 7:58:17 GMT -5
Thank you Russ,
Very interesting material to view and look at it closer. I will ask a friend about his opinion, and see/ hear his reflections.
I could not see one particular drawing; second row, the third from the left. Is it possible to see this?
I will keep you updated, about information.
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 22, 2004 21:32:39 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Dec 22, 2004 21:32:39 GMT -5
Evert, I fixed that pic. Take another look. Best Regards, Russ Thank you Russ, Very interesting material to view and look at it closer. I will ask a friend about his opinion, and see/ hear his reflections. I could not see one particular drawing; second row, the third from the left. Is it possible to see this? I will keep you updated, about information. Kind regards, Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 23, 2004 2:37:52 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 23, 2004 2:37:52 GMT -5
Thanks Russ, I was able to see the picture now.
There are some very interesting details seen in all of these drawings. I like every picture of them. The range of details do slightly differs though.
The name of my teachers school - and that of my own is Wei To. Wei To is a guardian and protector of the ancestors heritage. You will find this picture with an armor, so showing his skills in this path. Sometimes the name Skanda is mentioned. In your picture, one very old one, is shown with the same kind of armor too. Around Feng Huo there is a lot of detail being made, such as the 'fire' wheel he is balancing on. The philsosophy around that symbol is huge, and very important. It might be in relation with the Wind-Fire Hall as found in Hakka community.
The swordfingers refers to a Daoist sign. The posture more to the typical postures as seen in Indian art (such as the fighting style of Kalaripayitt.
Finally there is a drawing that reminds me strongly of the Robin Hood stories. The salute he is making is a general salute with a lesser deeper 'symbolical' meaning. The comming days I will start searcing about the explanantion of all details. Need to scan a lot, but I think it is worth the time and read.
Russ, are there more pictures in this direction. Not perse the martial arts pictures. I mean more in line with Martin Watts his few snapshots. His teacher Pan let him filmed these to show the outside world that there are lot of old pictures being found. Although they look porish, the meaning can be essential for our art........
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 27, 2004 18:52:01 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 27, 2004 18:52:01 GMT -5
If I may I’d like to make some comments on the Bubishi for consideration. A while back I did a small analysis on the Okinawna Bubushi (which can be found at www.funkydragon.com/bushi) and continue to struggle on its meaning. If I may set aside the origin question, the work, assuming it is a single source documents for this part of the discussion, makes one realize it really is a work on strategic thinking. The strategy how to heal, the strategy how and when to attack, the strategy how to survive those attacks, and various strategy of combat. That a source would keep these notes meant their training would have suggested all of the above were important. The Bubishi really appears to be the notes of an adept, to suggest part of their training for reference, but most of the ‘details’ of that training are not present. So to pick them up and figure out how to heal a condition, or exactly how to strike a point, etc. are not given. Their training must have given them those details (and perhaps an injunction about writing down the actual details), and these notes just memory jogs. Regardless of the source, the Bubishi did enter Okinawan martial circles. The more intriguing question, how were they used, were they used, and who actually did so? Funakoshi first published part of them (I believe in the original Chinese) and the appearance is that is students didn’t focus on what they contained. Mabuni published some of the notes, and a selection of actual drawings from the Bubishi. Today we know less I think. Most of the published texts on same all use different representation of the drawings. Now as the copies were hand copied, perhaps the efforts of different scribes changed the drawings. One side effect different drawings show different techniques or areas being struck. Depending on the source you get different techniques suggested. BTW the current bubishi drawings closest to Mabuni’s from 1933 is the Alexander/Penland translation. A friend who is a Chinese and Japanese translator throws his hands up in despair looking at all the different versions I’ve garnered to date. He believes all of the ‘bubishi’ drawings published (including Motobu’s) are not originals, and to try and translate them he would like to see the originals. He would rather not take the time to translate something else where human variables may have entered the issue (such as the copier may not have know the Chinese well and re-created it less than accurately). I think it is great people have tried to show where Bubishi contents may be found in present training. But I don’t think the pictures are the real picture. I think Roland Habsetzer’s work focusing a great deal on the interpretation of the strategy of the 48 self defense techniques starts to get a a way of looking at the underlying strategy. Not to suggest his answers are the total picture, but if the Bubishi was in actual use for art development, there would seem to be similar training reflecting its contents. After years of effort I convinced Ernest Rothrock (specializing in Northern Chinese styles) to look at the Bubishi self defense techniques. The subject wasn’t really in the scope of his studies, but it was interesting to observe his contention all of them are found in his Northern Eagle Claw basics, and seeing his execution I can accept his point of view. Nobody would suggest a Northern system was the source of the Bubishi tradition, but his point that the book represents basic theory and techniques from a Chinese perspective is interesting. If these are the basics, what’s next in the Bubishi art? (just a question I have no answers). So some of Okinawa’s seniors had copies of this text. Some of them shared that information. Has the strategy within the Bubishi actually had other impact in the Okinawan arts than its existence? From various individuals who’ve shared privately with me since I wrote this I would say there is some effort on the Bubishi, but it seems quiet, reserved for senior students. One Shorin group seniors have made a sincere study but apparently only within the past 40 or 50 years. It does seem the impact of the Bubishi is kept for private senior instruction, as opposed to being the cornerstone for programs. What I’ve discovered is it is really quite difficult to find anyone willing to discuss how they use the Bubishi in any meaningful context. Victor Smith
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Bubishi
Dec 28, 2004 10:26:38 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 28, 2004 10:26:38 GMT -5
Dear Victor,
Interesting text on your homepage about the Bubishi, I can imagine your emotions. I am afraid that the reality is even more chaotic, like nature. Nothing is fixed and constantly acting with a different aspect. Vital spots/ points with a body builder or a heavy person is different then a thin person. If you like to discuss things from that point of view, be free to start discussion.
Very good that you did write the critics from an Okinawan perspective, because transmissions on paper is seen more in traditional systems. I like to refer to Yong Chun White Crane. Transmissions do not cover details but are a roadmap to travel. It will present in a rough draft the way that you can climb to the top of the mountain. It doesn’t describe sensations and how the view on the mountain looks like. No black/ white statements.
Traditional systems present a holistic program which seems to get lost in the near future. Healing is such an aspect. I am a healer of profession and specialized in TCM, that’s why Patrick (McCarthy) asked me in the nineties to view his herbal section (Die Da Ke) for mistakes in ingredients and names. No way that such a chapter explain Die Da. In the West Chinese Herbology take a two years intensive course, then you must have a solid foundation of acupuncture, otherwise you can forget it. Bubishi present a few formula’s but doesn’t explain the principles and goals of that particular recipes. But you can use it to study it closer.
My students get a study guide. On it pictures and the traditional name. During lessons the can make notes beside the picture, and so safe a lot of information. They describe the process with their own words, and are able to ask specific questions. That’s a way to look deeper in the art. The same happened in the past, now we make use of modern (multi) media. In fact it is all the same. I can show you a form, but if you do not know where to look, then it is just another dance. There are thousands of dance. You need tools to analyze and understand the principles to understand the message. This all is NOT presented in the Bubishi.
Still the Bubishi is an interesting read because it explains that the traditional art is a holistic one. Patrick presented a work that was unique for that time, I am sure when you talk with him about that project, then he will probably tell you how he would have done the job better now.
I have three books of Bubishi, a nice collection. No way that they are for me the “Bible”. Far incomplete when I compare it with our family branch of Boxing. Still it gives any practicioner a glimpse of the whole range of the art. Add 99% skill extra to it, 60 years of practice and you are close to what it is all about.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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