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Yi Quan
Oct 5, 2004 21:54:48 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Oct 5, 2004 21:54:48 GMT -5
Hi Wanderer, Just wondering how much you know about Yi Chuan and Da Chen Quan ? I read a couple of books and saw some videos on Yi Quan fighting - find them very practical in terms of combat. There is this drill that they do - short punches like the way the Wing Chun do their one inch thrust. Is this common in Yi Quan ? My only contact with Nei Jia is Cheng Zi Tai Chi - I only do 37 postures and the four main push hands. Reading your posts make me feel like I know nothing about Nei Jia.
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Wanderer
Full Member
Practice, practice and practice
Posts: 143
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Post by Wanderer on Oct 6, 2004 0:35:35 GMT -5
Yes. I have heard of Yi Quan. But I was never trained in Yi Quan. My main training in Nei Jia included Chen Tai Ji, Cheng's Ba Gua, and Shan Xi Xing Yi. You probably know more about Yi Quan than I do.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 6, 2004 8:03:58 GMT -5
Hi, Got some frame grabs from the Yi Quan CD in my collection. Their Jin display appears awesome! The other thing I like is the free sparring component of their training. They fight like Hsing Yi and Pak Kua. When they do push hands, they are very aggressive. The CD explains that they don't do long forms but free-style sequences. Some of these are really different from the conventional toulu that we are so used to.
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Yi Quan
Oct 6, 2004 19:18:45 GMT -5
Post by pitbull on Oct 6, 2004 19:18:45 GMT -5
wow! another must see! i hope i can see a demo of it anytime soon
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Yi Quan
Dec 14, 2004 19:58:13 GMT -5
Post by oldragon on Dec 14, 2004 19:58:13 GMT -5
I Chuan: I had the good fortune to meet an I Chuan teacher in San Fransisco Bay area. His name is Fong Ha. I only trained for about 2 months with him. He taught in a park in Berlkey. They do a lot of standing practice. A minimum of 20 min. About the short punch: He would place his fist ON the target, (usually a 400 lb, bag) and "jing" the bag from ground zero. The idea is to make the bag jump straight up. Like an idiot, I asked him if I could feel the punch. He told me to hold this thick phone book against my chest, then he positioned his fist On the book. He "jinged", & I felt like a mule kicked me. I thought my backbone was being jerked out of my body. I also went back about 6 feet, & someone caught me. That was a lesson I'll never forget. He did show me the training for it. He began with both his fists at ground zero on a heavy wood wall. He explained that he sunk into himself, rounded the back, and sunk the chest. All at the same time. The training seems to be the reverse of the external styles. rather than big to small moves, it begins with micro movement & works to bigger. The lines "like five elements" are done with smaller motion & a lot of concentration on perfecting the motion of your body. ( relaxed & soft) That was about 25 years ago, & I still practice it, but i still can't get that "mule kick power". In Tao, Oldragon
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Yi Quan
Dec 15, 2004 1:24:20 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 15, 2004 1:24:20 GMT -5
Olddragon,
You experienced a very fine teacher and be happy that you were able to taste Geng/ Jin. This will be your reference and goal the rest of your life.
Jan Diepersloot - search by Google - is practitioner/ teacher that describe a lot about Fong Ha. My old Chinese Heikung teacher Dr Shen Honxun did taught us Wuxi Qigong, spontaneious action. He was the first one that let me feel several qualities of Geng. And you NEED a teacher that is able to show you the Geng quality. Once you feel it, you recognize and can discriminate the different powers/ explosions. I can't help it, but IMHO you NEED this reference otherwise it will be a play of words, which will be empty.
There are relations between all these teachers, that's why I know that you had a great meeting and lesson. treasure this!
And keep on practicing because this lead to refinement and final recognition of youyr skill and power.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Yi Quan
Dec 15, 2004 2:33:07 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 15, 2004 2:33:07 GMT -5
I Chuan: I had the good fortune to meet an I Chuan teacher in San Fransisco Bay area. His name is Fong Ha. I only trained for about 2 months with him. He taught in a park in Berlkey. They do a lot of standing practice. A minimum of 20 min. About the short punch: He would place his fist ON the target, (usually a 400 lb, bag) and "jing" the bag from ground zero. The idea is to make the bag jump straight up. Like an idiot, I asked him if I could feel the punch. He told me to hold this thick phone book against my chest, then he positioned his fist On the book. He "jinged", & I felt like a mule kicked me. I thought my backbone was being jerked out of my body. I also went back about 6 feet, & someone caught me. That was a lesson I'll never forget. He did show me the training for it. He began with both his fists at ground zero on a heavy wood wall. He explained that he sunk into himself, rounded the back, and sunk the chest. All at the same time. The training seems to be the reverse of the external styles. rather than big to small moves, it begins with micro movement & works to bigger. The lines "like five elements" are done with smaller motion & a lot of concentration on perfecting the motion of your body. ( relaxed & soft) That was about 25 years ago, & I still practice it, but i still can't get that "mule kick power". In Tao, Oldragon Hey Wayne, Good to hear from you again – where have you been hiding;D Yi Quan – intriguing style. The more I look, the more I think this is the heart of Internal styles fighting. And you’re totally right, they take the practice of “jin” to enormously high level. I have a series of Yi Quan videos and all these guys focused on are; using the various parts of the body to express power. Techniques seem to take a back seat with these guys. I understand they don’t even do forms like the way we do. They just move around and “explode” their power in various techniques. Some looks Hsing Yi and others Pak Kua to me. A friend was telling me that Yi Quan is really big in Japan now. Done under the name “Tai Ken”. According to him, the late Oyama-Sensei studied “Tai Ken” and added it into his Karate. Don’t doubt what he says, he has been doing Oyama-karate for a very long time. My interest in Yi Quan is exactly this; how to express power both long and short range. ;D
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Yi Quan
Dec 15, 2004 3:00:52 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 15, 2004 3:00:52 GMT -5
The art - as practiced in Japan - is known as Taikiken. The late grandmaster that practice taught this art to many advanced karate ka's is Sawai Sensei. He had many followers, and the art is still being taught in Holland by Jan Kallenbach. Most of the folowers I know by name, a very serious group of intellectual people wityh high skill. During the early seventies a book has been published, I am not sure if this is still inprint? At the end of the book you will see the advanced group still responsible today in spreading that particular version of Taikiken.
More information about Fong ha can be found in the second Volume of "Warriors of Stillness" from Jan Diepersloot. Olddragon a MUST to have because it focus VERY strongly on the trainings you have experienced. To be honest, they are one of my favorite books in my collection. ja Diepersloot describe it exactly the way you have been experienced it, parc workouts, written doen in a very nice relaxed way. Soon a third Volume will be published. On Internet you can find these books.
My student did contact jan Diepersloot himself, he is still giving seminars throughout the world. Nostalgia....
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Yi Quan
Dec 16, 2004 1:36:06 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 16, 2004 1:36:06 GMT -5
From Evert :- A pic of Sifu Fong Ha.
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Yi Quan
Dec 24, 2004 22:35:51 GMT -5
Post by oldragon on Dec 24, 2004 22:35:51 GMT -5
Thanks Everet, Ihad a student when I lived in Arizona. He went to Japan & studied with that same I Chuan Group. I got a lot of good feedback from him. He told me they like to stand an hour & more. they also put on the gloves & like to mix it up a lot. He stayed with them for two years. then he met a Korean girl & married her. they live in Korea now. He sent me a bunch of video of the group, & some old timers training. Where do you live? Brother Ling has good Jing too. I really miss him, ( haven't seen him in two years) Happy holiday to all. In tao, Oldragon
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Yi Quan
Dec 24, 2004 22:44:07 GMT -5
Post by oldragon on Dec 24, 2004 22:44:07 GMT -5
Hi again Everet, Forgot to mention, I had another student in Arizona who was from Moscow. He studies with Dipersloot. He had the job of translating books into Russian as they had a shortage of materials in Russia. He & his group traveled the world to find books & teachers to desiminate the info into the Russian language. I'm going to e-these guys & hook them up with this site. they are both good guys with their hearts in the right place. Look for them soon. Oldragon
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Yi Quan
Dec 27, 2004 8:49:18 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 27, 2004 8:49:18 GMT -5
Hello Oldragon, You are correct, the group around Kallenbach keep there stances a long time, more then an hour. Just the way as they did with Sawai sensei. I am looking forward to the third Volume of Diepersloot his books. they are worth every penny, especially when you have experience in it. Volume II is GREAT! Warm regrads, Evert.
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Post by oldragon on Jan 9, 2005 1:46:00 GMT -5
More I Chuan Stories: Hi Guys, i will relate a few experiences with Fong Ha. I had heard from friends about a Chinese teacher who could Project his chi over distances. Later when i met Fong Ha, I found out it was him. One afternoon after class, one of his old students showed up, & they began doing it. The student began about 20 ft. away & Fong Ha began projecting at him & the student trien to move toward him. The student appeared to struggle as if he were fighting a strong wind. This was the first time I had seen an actual display of this. the technique Fong Ha used was to place his palm up at Tan Tien level, then raise the hand along his midline to chest high, rotate the palm facing out, & press toward the student. I had already felt Sifu Fongs power, so I did not question it. Plus I respected him. On another occasion, he was standing in the middle of a circle of the students doing this same action, while slowly turning & projecting within the circle. naturally I walked over & joined the circle. When his hand passed me, it felt like a shadow passing thru me, sort of like an invisible sword. I really was not at all skeptacle of this technique as many Chinese Doctors use chi projection to heal. It was another rewarding experience to me. I do have more stories & will share them with you all. Nataraya, where are you in the world? Oldragon
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 9, 2005 4:33:53 GMT -5
Oldragon,
We are heading an area which I speak only with ‘insiders’, because it discuss sensation most do/ will not understand. In Holland and Belgium not all practitioners were sensitive enough to explore activity; some sang, some were rolling, crying, jumping, shaking are just running circles. For me personal, I was always doing a strange martial dance in which movements touched the extreme.
I do not feel comfortable to write this down, simply because you must feel it. Dr Shen was the one who made me feel different kind of sensations. Sensations that were responsible for recognition of Qi and Jing. Several qualities. That’s what I meant in previous mails, you need a teacher to understand a sensation, once experienced you will recognized it in your own practice. And believe me, it is there but not known. Once you can label the sensation, you can let the “thought” go so that it become stronger and quicker in the skill…….
The beauty of the exercises of Shen Hongxun was that it is a very simple skill. I can do it whenever I want and get the sensation. I show it to my advanced students and let them see (and experience) what it does with stagnant limitations. In the system of Shen Hongxun it is about spontaneous movement. To do that correctly, there are several ‘alignments’ which are of great importance. Once you can integrate this in your postures and focus, the “feeling/ action” will come. These alignments are keywords in martial arts, but hardly seen. The books of Jan Diepersloot brought back sensations of the eighties, the moment that I learned to discriminate important Geng/ Jing/ Qi sensations……..
The same with all martial systems, there are advanced practitioners selling nonsense to the world. I know a few of them who tried to spoil tradition for money and status. I am 100% sure that with the mentioned names the path to quality is open.
Oldragon, I practiced this system a long time because it was related to acupuncture course I did. To bring sensations through the needle over the meridian into the organ. Or bringing the Intent (Yi) over a long distance into a different body. As a physiotherapist, when you massage patients, it become a natural thing. This should be the case, but again many healers doesn’t recognize sensations so you are doing nothing with it, a missing change I would say.
I am more then pleased to hear that you had some good experiences and observations. That’s make your references and understanding much deeper.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Yi Quan
Jan 9, 2005 21:24:27 GMT -5
Post by oldragon on Jan 9, 2005 21:24:27 GMT -5
Evert, Check your E-mail, Thanks, Oldragon
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